Kershaw's steel choices

HappyDaddy

HappyDaddy

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I'm no "steel snob" by any means. I'm also loathe to criticize or question the business decisions of a successful manufacturer. This question is purely from a perspective of curiosity.

How much difference in the cost of manufacturing would it make if steels like D2, VG10, or S35VN, were substituted for 8cr13mov? I understand that the answer for each would be different and may be significant. Any idea?
 
Kershaw made the Link in S35VN and M390 as exclusives. The S35VN was for House of Blades and I think the M390 went to several dealers
The M390 sells for 80.00, The S35VN sells for 89.00, I've seen the 420HC listed for 45.00.
The Link is the only example I've looked at. But I'd bet if you looked at their other models that do have budget steel, the prices are extremely affordable.

I wouldn't think the cost of manufacturing would change because they're already set up for whichever knife is going to be produced. IMO, the cost of the steel is the biggest factor. I don't know if heat treat is done in house on the various steels. That would add to the steel price overall.
 
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I don't know the answer. I'm guessing you wish Kershaw and other brands (CRKT maybe?) would up the blade steel? I do too. If Ontario can make a Rat in D2 or Spyderco can produce Delicas and Enduras, I'd love to see Kershaw and CRKT (who I think has some good designs) up the blade steel and make the street price $50-99.
 
gazz98 said:
I don't know the answer. I'm guessing you wish Kershaw and other brands (CRKT maybe?) would up the blade steel? I do too. If Ontario can make a Rat in D2 or Spyderco can produce Delicas and Enduras, I'd love to see Kershaw and CRKT (who I think has some good designs) up the blade steel and make the street price $50-99.
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Honestly, I'm just curious as to whether anyone might have an idea what the incremental cost difference might be with various steel "upgrades." I get that Kershaw wants to maintain various price points for its products. It clearly believes that the $20-$50 range is important. I'd just like to know whether upgrades move that by $5 per unit, or $25 per unit. I have no clue.
 
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Don't know the exact numbers but the differences in manufacturing cost can be significant. Not only is the higher grade steel obviously more expensive in bulk, a steel like S35VN is going to spend a significantly longer time on a grinder/profiler and will eat through more of the expensive tooling materials in the process.
 
I mostly wish makers would ditch 8Cr13MoV as I feel even AUS-8 and 12C27 to start are generally better but it could be those using them are just doing a better HT.
 
I’m also curious, but am MORE than happy to pay more for the better steel.
I have a HOB Link in s35 and an Induction, Hawk Lock, in alphabet soup steel......the difference is literally glaring. The Induction wound up in a drawer somewhere. The Link is a great work knife.
Joe
 
I'd like to see Kershaw (and other mid-low cost makers) do more in D2. That's my steel of choice.
Rich
 
You can go from a s30v pm2 to a s35vn or s110v pm2 for $25-$30 more. The OKC Rat 1 goes up about $10 going from aus8 to D2. So I would think Kershaws increase would be similar per knife. I really wish Kershaw would use d2 on there budget knives. I'm ok with 14c28n but would prefer d2. And I don't care for 8cr13mov. If Steel Will and OKC can make good knives under $45 With D2 why can't Kershaw?
 
If anything, Kershaw seems likely to bring steel quality down further; 8cr13 doesn’t seem to make up the blade in$20 folders anymore. 3cr16, or some absolute garbage, does. The cost of the steel isn’t much of a factor in $200 knives, but unless the company is Ontario, you aren’t gonna find a quality folder in a quality steel for $35.
 
PWatkins said:
You can go from a s30v pm2 to a s35vn or s110v pm2 for $25-$30 more. The OKC Rat 1 goes up about $10 going from aus8 to D2. So I would think Kershaws increase would be similar per knife. I really wish Kershaw would use d2 on there budget knives. I'm ok with 14c28n but would prefer d2. And I don't care for 8cr13mov. If Steel Will and OKC can make good knives under $45 With D2 why can't Kershaw?
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I think Kershaw is capable of making their blades in other steels....but you need to look at how their sales are made. the majority of kershaws that are in the 3cr and 8cr steels are the models commonly found in big box stores, hardware stores, and outdoor stores. The vast majority of those customers don't know, or care, about steel. The ones that do have US made Kershaw options to choose from at those same stores. Steel Will and Ontario customers seem to be more likely to seek out those specific brands online, or are looking in specific brick and mortar stores. If Kershaw switches to D2 and takes a blade that was $35 and changes it to $45 or $50 that is more likely to change the impulse buy factor from the walmart shopper...at least that's my 2 cents... I have always looked at their 3cr models as entry level, and everyone needs a gateway drug. As far as 8cr...its good enough for all the Spydie and Byrd lovers, so I don't see a problem with Kershaw using it.

I'd love to see more sandvick and D2, and with the new Natrix coming out in D2 we will see if people put their money where their mouths are....hopefully the sales are good and it encourages them to use D2 more:-)
 
The cost difference would be enough that their chinese import knives would no longer be budget knives. No more $12-20 kershaws.
The cost of the raw steel is only one part of the equation. They would first have to import the steel, then the harder steels are more time consuming to shape into a blade and to finish. So the extra cost on transporting the materials and extra time and labor spent on manufacturing would be the big increase.
I for one can speak very highly of the sandvik 14c28n that kershaw uses. I think it is better than some people realize. I recorded some cut tests and the leek in sandvik 14c28n was able to cut a greater quantity of rope than vg10 while still maintaining a printer paper cutting edge.

 
Comparing retail prices on otherwise identical knives in different steels doesn’t necessarily track with production costs. The S30V PM2 is much less expensive than the S35VN model. This is comparing a mass produced model to one made in special batch runs. By making the S110V PM2 a production model, Spyderco can offer it at a price that is amazingly little more than S30V, considering both steel cost and the enormous difficulty of processing S110V.
 
I agree with you about the impulse purchases. Most people I know buy $35 and under knives from Wal-Mart, hardware stores and even gas stations. When I read this thread it made me think of the dividend vs the rats and cutjacks. With those knives being in the $40ish range I feel like OKC and steel will are better bang for your buck knives. I know the dividend is USA made so the manufacturing cost is more. I'd pay $50-$55 for a USA made dividend in d2 just as an example. I don't think Kershaw should or would make d2 there bottom steel. I'm sure most of there money is made in the 3cr knives. I'd just like the see knives like the leek, dividend, blur, and link offered in d2.

As far as my comment about 8cr, I've used mostly Kershaws in this steel. In my experience it's not as good as aus8. I've used aus8 from SOG quite a bit and been happy with it. Spyderco/Byrd may have better 8cr but I'm not familiar with it.
 
I've got the Link in M390 and really like it..in fact, its my EDC for the most part. I also have the Leek in S30V which is nice too. I do like D2 and would like to see this more @ Kershaw.
As far as 8Cr13MoV, I do carry a Spydie with this steel. Not bad really and stays damn sharp. This also, obviously, keeps the price down.
 
The 3cr and 8cr knives are made in China. I wonder how much of the steel choice just has to do with avoiding the complexity and corresponding business costs of exporting American and European steels to China, never mind the delays in the pipeline that come from that. Let's not forget that this is not like mailing a letter. Sending tons (hundreds of tons?) of big heavy-A.F.-steel across an ocean is neither cheap nor fast.

PWatkins said:
You can go from a s30v pm2 to a s35vn or s110v pm2 for $25-$30 more.
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I dont have a business degree, but my guess is that switching from one steel to another steel from the American same plant (CPM) that is all going to the same American factory (spyderco) is likely not all that big a deal administratively. Yes, S110v will accelerate wear on the machinery n the factory, but it can't be much if any tougher for them to load a rack of S110v steel onto a truck and drive it to Golden CO, USA Earth than it is to load S30v into a truck and drive it to Golden, Co USA Earth. Same with Kershaw changing up from 420hc in the link, to S35vn. It's all going on a truck and getting shipped within the country.

That's my long-winded way of saying, I just don't think it's a fair comparison and I dont think any conclusion can be extrapolated from the Spyderco example and applied to Kershaw.

On the other hand, I'd be interested to see what the cost difference would be if Kershaw started using 9cr18mov in their chinese made models...

gazz98 said:
If Ontario can make a Rat in D2 or Spyderco can produce Delicas and Enduras, I'd love to see Kershaw and CRKT (who I think has some good designs) up the blade steel and make the street price $50-99.
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They do. Kershaw Blur in S30v runs $80-85. The Link in S35vn from HOB runs $89. and the Link in M390 is $79 from KC.

Rich S said:
I'd like to see Kershaw (and other mid-low cost makers) do more in D2. That's my steel of choice.
Rich
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Agreed. Although, i'd LOVE to see them bring back CPM-D2. I have one of the Leeks in composite CPM-D2 from before they switched to regular D2.
 
I'm not a metalurgist or a blade maker. But I'd think the cost of using a more premium steel is greater than just the cost of the steel. As has been said, better steel wears out cutters and grinders faster. (How ARE mass produced blanks cut out? stamped? water jet? IDK) In addition, premium steels are likely less tolerant during heat treat. I'd bet the heat treat oven is large enough that it holds more than one style of blade. IOW, blades from several models all go in together. Fewer steels mean fewer heat treat protocols. And that means more efficient use of oven space.

I'm no fan of 8Cr13Mov in particular or any of the Chinese steels in general. But they are easy to sharpen and will take a keen edge. That's great stuff for the average knife buyer. Selling D2 to the masses could do more to frustrate them than impress them.
 
19-3ben said:
The 3cr and 8cr knives are made in China. I wonder how much of the steel choice just has to do with avoiding the complexity and corresponding business costs of exporting American and European steels to China, never mind the delays in the pipeline that come from that. Let's not forget that this is not like mailing a letter. Sending tons (hundreds of tons?) of big heavy-A.F.-steel across an ocean is neither cheap nor fast.


I dont have a business degree, but my guess is that switching from one steel to another steel from the American same plant (CPM) that is all going to the same American factory (spyderco) is likely not all that big a deal administratively. Yes, S110v will accelerate wear on the machinery n the factory, but it can't be much if any tougher for them to load a rack of S110v steel onto a truck and drive it to Golden CO, USA Earth than it is to load S30v into a truck and drive it to Golden, Co USA Earth. Same with Kershaw changing up from 420hc in the link, to S35vn. It's all going on a truck and getting shipped within the country.

That's my long-winded way of saying, I just don't think it's a fair comparison and I dont think any conclusion can be extrapolated from the Spyderco example and applied to Kershaw.

On the other hand, I'd be interested to see what the cost difference would be if Kershaw started using 9cr18mov in their chinese made models...


They do. Kershaw Blur in S30v runs $80-85. The Link in S35vn from HOB runs $89. and the Link in M390 is $79 from KC.


Agreed. Although, i'd LOVE to see them bring back CPM-D2. I have one of the Leeks in composite CPM-D2 from before they switched to regular D2.
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You can see the price increase for better blade steel in Kershaw already, and its right on par with my spyderco comparison. Look at the aluminum scale 420hc dividend. It's $45 ish to the m390 version at $80ish. Or the 14c28n to s30v blurs at $60ish to $85ish. Both are in the $25- $30ish increment.
I don't have a business degree either, this is just my opinion and you no what people say about those.
 
Looking at a major steel distributor, sample prices for a .18" x 23" x 2" billet:
  • 440C: $32
  • S30V: $57
  • M390: $91
Assuming you can get 5 blades from a 23" piece of stock, that's $6.40, $11.40, and $18.20 per knife respectively.

The difference in the raw material cost isn't that big, especially if you consider the bulk discounts someone like Kershaw would get, compared to buying small chunks.
 
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