Khukuri as a weapon

W

Will Kwan

Joined
Nov 23, 1998
Messages
1,594
I am looking for information on how to use the khukuri as a weapon at really close quarters. The distance would be approximately 2-3 feet (chest to chest). An example would be coming around the corner a narrow hallway in house in the dark and suddenly someone is there.

Is the khukuri (or any single edge and long bladed) knife at a serious disadvantage compared to a shorter knife? It would be difficult to get a proper swing with the khukuri. One solution might be to use the free hand to push the back of the blade through the target. That puts both hands together, which might leave openings for attack. Is this a problem since most people would be crouched down making themselves into a much smaller target? Due to the longer spine length in a khukuri it may be easier to grab onto or used to jam the knife against the khukuri welder’s body. If someone grabs hold of the spine would you be able to twist the khukuri free to bring the sharp edge to bear against your opponent’s hand? Pulling back had and twisting might be a solution. That way the sharp edge is bound to catch the opponent’s hand. Something like the Uncle Bill Special with the top edge partially sharpened seems to be the way to go.

I guess a wooden khukuri is order to do some testing.

Will

 
Will,

Try different grips in your experiments.

The ranges will change.

Try forward grip, edge up, reverse grip edge out, and reverse grip edge in as you consider the possibilities of the khukuri at close range.

I look forward to hearing what you discover.
 
Will, in a scenario such as you describe, I'd carry the khukuri with my arm down and slightly back, edge forward. That way there is no weapon peeping around the corner to alert your mark (always a howler in cop thrillers where they invariably poke the pistol around the corner as if it had eyes). If you come on someone and they attack first you can turn and drop one foot back, swinging the Khuk forward and up. If you attack first, your leading arm will momentarily block the sight of the khuk rising. In either case you are making a strike which is all but impossible to block and which will certainly tear up something important. As for advantage when squared off, the khuk would give you a precious six inches over, say, a sheath knife . If you come chest to chest in a clinch suddenly, your arm is down where it is briefly free and you can slide the khuk either up behind the person and draw it on across his neck, saw it up between his legs or whatever. The length and curve of the khuk is a HUGE advantage for sneaky cut like that.
Remember that if you hurt him, he is most likely to react towards the wound and by then your next shot should be going in. Don't retrict your thinking to stabbing only or to overhead chops. Practise with a trusted friend and a whole bunch of duct tape on the edge of your khukuri.

And stay out of dark hallways!

Stephen
 
One of the things I have picked in my studies, practices, and readings is that most people don't practice enough. When I was a young pup in Karate, I thought that I could handle myself--until I went to my first open style match. While I did okay, I got my clock cleaned for the most part!!

What usually gets one through the situation you mention is practicing and using the techniques given/taught/learned. Often it isn't the most skilled or stronger that wins, but the person who remembers (and that often means someone whose body has just retained enough memory of the technique to execute)what he is doing.

Which is why the Masters of various MA stress basic techniques. A straight punch and kick is so easy to learn, retain, and execute. A basic snap cut, snap thrust, and draw cut are easy to remember and use.

If you are familiar with your Khukuri, if you practice (as Stephen points out) with trusted friends, or even with just a dummy or mirror, you most likely will be ahead of your adversary, especially with that longer and heavier blade.

.02

[This message has been edited by DeathDancer (edited 02-22-2001).]
 
I would have to say you are limiting your tatics even with a backhand strike using the back of the blade you are still going to stun or stagger an intruder as far as crouching down crooks are known for being "stupid" they are in an unfamiliar place. Not to mention the shock factor of seeing 14+ inches (do they make any blades that small?) If they can see the blade at all. In a dark environment how can they block, dodge or otherwise turn the blade against you? No offense to any super ninjas out there. I would like to see ANYone come into my place and block any sort of blade that I have...that is if they are actually standing after the big bang. Even in the day light a single edged blade regardless of a reverse grip or overhand grip will easily twist to a more offending angle. Of course I can't believe anyone would actually engage a person with a big blade like a kuk and even my 25" Sirupati is fast enough to end the dispute. Remember the Japanese hated the Gorkhas and the Khukuris for a reason and as discussed there is little or no combat drills from them. The best weapon in any fight is your mind NOT a weapon. You can loose a weapon and live. That's my two cents...
Rick
 
I have some ideas of my own, but I'd be interested in what the police/military trained among us would choose. Any opinions?
 
:
Will it seems to me that in another discussion a long while back(?) that it was decided that a shorter blade khukuri would be the proper choice due to the closeness one would be fighting in.
Maybe it was about the katana or the tarwar though, can't recall it exactly.
I think a 15" would be alright, perhaps even an 18 inch.

And in playing around a little while back I discoverd the reverse grip made for a good stabbing grip.
Howard had some good advice in letting the khukuri be the teacher.
Works for me.
I hadn't given any different grips that much thought before, just had the mindset of the khukuri being a good chopper but not much else in the way of defense.
I was very wrong.
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>>>>---Yvsa-G@WebTV.net---->®

"VEGETARIAN".............
Indin word for lousy hunter.
 
Yvsa,

Years ago I was studying the short staff with my Aikido sensei. I finally got the idea one day when I was sitting by myself in a wide open field. I picked up a 3” stalk of grass and worked out the flow with it. I spent some hours learning from that little piece of grass. When I went back to the dojo my sensei saw it immediately.

That lesson stayed with me.
 
Will,

Consider: Any information or techniques you get through posts to your topic will also be readily available to the type of person you should be concerned about. Tactically unsound. A public forum is no place to hold forth on the art and science of inflicting harm on others, no matter how good original intentions are. I do understand that information on this subject as it relates to the khukuri is scarce. That is a GOOD thing.

As an old swordslinger, I learned early on that you keep your best techniques to yourself, a practice very much time-honored, and for very good reason. The problem is that mere conceptualizing and generalizations usually do more harm than good when trying to communicate on this subject via a forum. At least private email offers some security. You've gotten some some good advice already from forumites' posts. Hopefully the "good stuff " will continue to come your way by email, and you will honor the gravity of it.

Sincere Regards

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"To know and to act are one."
 
Not sure whether I agree or disagree. Got to think that one over.

But, I still think mindset is the most important aspect. You must know what you want to do and try your best to do it. Waiting for the situation to confront you and then trying to decide what to do is not the way to go.

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Blessings from the computer shack in Reno.

Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ
Himalayan Imports Archives (33,000 + posts)
 
Jim,

I totally respect your opinion, and don't mean to come across as the Scrooge of martial arts. I've just developed a very careful and conservative attitude towards disseminating information like this. The more good people who know and understand this subject the better as far as I'm concerned.

------------------
"To know and to act are one."
 
Bill,

I totally agree with your idea about mindset. Jeff Cooper and Masaad Ayoob both teach that it isn't the weapon or technique that wins a gunfight (though both are proponents of the .45 1911). It's always being in Condition 2 (or orange, or pink, or whatever), ready to go to Condition 3. And once in Condition 3, convincing yourself and your adversary that you will do "everything" necessary to win!

I agree with Finnean to certain extent that a public forum isn't exactly the place to get advice on defense or offense. However, if a bad guy has the initiative to seek and read this type of information, he probably is at a dojo, salle de arms, or some such studying to REALLY MESS YOU UP!! And this forum is just offering suggestions--as in everything connected to MA, Mr. Kwan will develop his own techniques and skills. Remember, the Way of the Eightfold path is just a direction. Everyone makes his own journey.
 
Will,
I have wondered about khuks as home defense backup weapons also. I personally go for the handgun 1st, and khukuri 2nd.
This may be off of your topic a little and it may be stating something that you were already assuming to be in effect tactically at the time you would encounter an intruder anyway, but here goes.
I was going to say that alot of home defense gurus recommend having a "safe room" that the family goes to at first sign of a break in in progress. They also stress the tactical foolishness of hunting for an (possibly armed)intruder who has probably been awake and alert longer than the groggy homeowner. It is better to call 911 and wait for them to come to you(if at all) and then be in control of WHERE and HOW they are forced to enter(your pre-thought out saferoom). I think using that as a starting point might narrow down your choices of khuks and tactics, because it limits many possible changing variables Of course having a cordless or cell phone in the safe room along with an extremely bright tactical light(Surefire for ex.) would help alot. You are also more likely to come out on top legally if you do have to use lethal force if you warn the intruder not to enter and what will happen if he does enter a room where you and your family are trying your best to avoid violence.
Of course if you are seperated from your family and surprised by an intruder(which is what you are probably talking about in the 1st place) then I'll leave the khuk fighting tactics to the pros. My rambling and hopefully not totally incoherent .02!
Rob

BTW now that I reread your post Will, I realize it had NOTHING to do with home defense per se! Sorry about that, I hope this rambling mess might be of use to someone. I also disagree that tactics should not be discussed on the internet. Its a little to late. I do however think that bomb making and other terrorist tricks of the trade should be banned. When it comes to ANYTHING that might cause another Ok. city type of disaster, the 1st amend. takes a backseat. Man, am I bossy today or what? Musta been that broccoli I had for lunch
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[This message has been edited by MauiRob (edited 02-23-2001).]
 
The appropriate mindset is all-important, as Bill and DeathDancer infer. A timely reminder for myself as I go to possibly confront a worthy adversary of the large, four-legged amply clawed variety.

I also agree with DeathDancer that signposts pointing to the right path to take are a good thing in this venue. I guess I was responding to Will's requests for specifics on close quarter blade combat techniques such as reinforced cut and thrust, weapon directed extremety control, etc.- which when implemented properly are frightenly efficient and definately not for the faint of heart, but make entertaining reading for "combat buffs".

I am of a mind to make the "Bad Guys" have to work as hard as possible, and under public scrutiny for this information. I am also of a mind to share openly in the right situation.

Truly Yours,

Scrooge

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"To know and to act are one."
 
Thanks for the information.

My interest in the subject actually came from chopping down a small tree in really dense bush. Being the lazy oaf that I am I proceeded to try and chop the tree down with the obstructing vegetation intact. I could not get much of a swing with the khukuri to get the power I desired. I eventually cleared enough of the offending branches away so that I could finish the job.

When I got home I was really puzzled how one would maintain control and employ a large blade in really tight quarters. As a result the situation I came up with is very specific. Would a large blade such as my 17.5” WWII due to the weaknesses I mentioned?

Howard, I will try some of the grips you described.

Stephen, I should try something freehand forward.

“If you come on someone and they attack first you can turn and drop one foot back, swinging the Khuk forward and up.”

To step back seems to be the obvious solution.

“The length and curve of the khuk is a HUGE advantage for sneaky cut like that.”

It does seem to cover a wide arc.

“Don't retrict your thinking to stabbing only or to overhead chops. “

I completely agree and realize that my other body parts are available.

“Practise with a trusted friend and a whole bunch of duct tape on the edge of your khukuri. “

I will make up some wooden knives. Even a dull khukuri might be able to cut through duct tape.

DeathDancer, I agree with everything except.

“you most likely will be ahead of your adversary, especially with that longer and heavier blade.”

Is the longer and heavier blade really an advantage? I don’t know that is why I am asking.


Rick,

“Not to mention the shock factor of seeing 14+ inches (do they make any blades that small?”

A 14” bladed khukuri is a fairly large khukuri for example my WWII has only a 12” blade. Yes, it is impressive and I would certainly run if confronted with it.

“single edged blade regardless of a reverse grip or overhand grip will easily twist to a more offending angle.”

Agreed, but the khukuri is 2” wide and can give the person grabbing it a leverage advantage.

“The best weapon in any fight is your mind NOT a weapon.”

Agreed.

Yvsa,

“I hadn't given any different grips that much thought before, just had the mindset of the khukuri being a good chopper but not much else in the way of defense.”

That’s the approach I am taking.

Uncle Bill, agreed.

Finn,

“Any information or techniques you get through posts to your topic will also be readily available to the type of person you should be concerned about.” Tactically unsound.”

I disagree. There are many techniques and tactics for the situation as Deathdancer, Rick, and Yvsa have brought up. The actual employment and mindset is more important. A bad guy has no idea which technique will be used. Deathdancer makes a valid point that a BG reading this is probably practicing tactics in a dojo or other environment. Rob and Bill further point out that a firearm would be a much better weapon (more common too).

“art and science of inflicting harm on others, no matter how good original intentions are”

The news also gives very good ideas on the subject. There are many books on the topic.

“The problem is that mere conceptualizing and generalizations usually do more harm than good when trying to communicate on this subject via a forum.”

That is one of the reasons I am curious to try them myself. One thing I am thinking of doing is with my eyes closed walk around to the voice commands of a friend. Once I am about 2-3 ft away he will tell me to open my eyes and I will have to try and cut the target. Hopefully I will not trip and fall on my khukuri.

“Hopefully the "good stuff " will continue to come your way by email, and you will honor the gravity of it. “

I keep private emails private. This is one of the reasons I asked here and not emailed people who train in the martial arts. There are others like myself who are willing to share what we learn about this subject.

“I guess I was responding to Will's requests for specifics on close quarter blade combat techniques such as reinforced cut and thrust, weapon”

Actually I use them often when chopping ribs or cutting up a roast. The only difference is that I do not do them at high speed. I did not know they were called re-enforced cuts. What are re-enforced thrust? Do you push on the butt cap? Would this make the khukuri unstable?

“definately not for the faint of heart”

From what I have seen done to bone and meat in the kitchen I would agree.

If this thread felt to be inappropriate I would not object to having it closed down.

 
Will: I think I might hold the khuk tight to my body point up so I could turn and push blade first into the target. Then maybe a get distance to chop hard. (Like a jab to the nose in a fist fight to set up the attacker. Element of surprise factor is a must.--Just my opinion--
 
Will,

I don't think you're thread is inappropriate, please don't think about shutting it down. One must start somewhere. Personally, I am uncomfortable sharing certain techniques in such a public fashion, and has been pointed out before, this forum is read by people of all ages and inclinations. But that is just me, honoring my teachers and the rules under which I was taught. I respect your search for knowlege in this area, and hope you are successful.

A reinforced thrust with the khukuri takes advantage of the blades angle and is done with the "off" hand bracing or striking the blade at the back just rear of where the downward angle of the blade starts.

Good Luck

------------------
"To know and to act are one."

[This message has been edited by Finnean (edited 02-23-2001).]
 
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