Khukuri Fullers

J

Jackal_89

Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Messages
122
First off, I feel that I have to establish that I know the purpose of a fuller is to strengthen the blade by giving it a complex cross section (like and 'I' beam), allowing for a wider blade with less material, blah, blah, blah. I don't buy into the "blood groove" theory.

My question pertains to the rear half of the blade before the spine turns downward. Some blades take more liberty for a more ornate adornment here (but i'm no talking about those). On the models I am looking at, there is a single long thin groove that looks cut or filed out on most "military" service model, or basic looking khukuri. The blades look better with it, even though it's just a narrow groove, but I can't imagine that this is enough to act as a fuller, even though many sellers call it a fuller.

Is there a technical function for this, or is it symbolic?

Thanks!
 
FinnSetanta said:
If I'm not mistaken, that's known as the sword of Shiva, and is purely symbolic.
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Is it? I've read all over this forum and got the impression it was only the more ornate ones that was the sword of Shiva. It's the same for the basic one then?
 
Jackal_89 said:
Is it? I've read all over this forum and got the impression it was only the more ornate ones that was the sword of Shiva. It's the same for the basic one then?
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Sword of Shiva is also just a name since his main weapon is actually a trident.
All my HI Kuks have one and even some ancient Roman blades have that pattern. Perhaps there was some connection at some point. Maybe as early as the times of Alexander the Great. Looking at Greek swords and Kukris it's hard not to see the similarities.
 
As far as I know, the Sword of Shiva is purely traditional, much like the cho. They can be very ornate and filled with brass, or they can be as simple as a single line, but all of them have it. In fact, most of my HI blades have a Sword of Shiva, with the exception of my Kumar Kardas I believe.
 
The cho also has a function though.

Anyway, I think that answered the question. Thanks guys!
 
SingleGrind said:
As far as I know, the Sword of Shiva is purely traditional, much like the cho. They can be very ornate and filled with brass, or they can be as simple as a single line, but all of them have it. In fact, most of my HI blades have a Sword of Shiva, with the exception of my Kumar Kardas I believe.
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Well...almost all. I know i know...they are not really Khuks but yall gave me half a chance to show them off so there:D.

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Many refer to the "Sword of Shiva" as a fuller but it really is not. Fullers are structural and SOS is ornamental as far as I know. You just gotta sort it out of context yourself and it will become self explanatory most of the time.
 
How far back does the tradition go?
Old Germanic and Roman knives have that same pattern at the same position in a blade.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1150167-Ancient-Mini-Combat-Kukri
Greek swords have that pattern too as well and in addition the Kukri shape.
The Germanic ones most likely got inspired by the Romans which probably got it from the Greeks.
Maybe it came from Indopersia to the Greeks or the other way around?

Too much to be a coincidence.
Could it really be that multiple civilizations copied that "sword of Zeus" I presume, from the Greeks just for esthetics?

I wish I would know an expert in ancient blades. Maybe the Egyptians with their Kukri like swords also had a sword of Horus along the spine?
 
The plot thickens or call me crazy.

I just looked at old Egyptian swords. Kopesh from Ramses 2 and Tuenkamun for example. They show similar lines along the spine. However they are raised and seem more functional instead of engraved and decorational. They also follow the whole spine. They seem to add structural stability to the soft bronze. Similar to the I-beam like wide spine on Indo Persian blades like the pesh kabz or the Korean kitchen knife :-p

That functional reason of strengthening soft metal by geometry would explain why multiple societies used that pattern and how it copied over into more recent times and in Nepal even until today.

If that historical connection is true then the decorative sword of Shiva is simply mimicking a functional old blade feature.
 
Jens Schuetz: Indeed, they did use more of a convex shaping running down the blade to strengthen it. With good steel, you can do with less material (the fuller as we know it), but that's not the case with bronze. I also imagine it would have been easier to cast.

ndoghouse: You're gonna show pictures of those gigantic bowies until I break down and buy one aren't you?
 
Jens Schuetz said:
The plot thickens or call me crazy.

I just looked at old Egyptian swords. Kopesh from Ramses 2 and Tuenkamun for example. They show similar lines along the spine. However they are raised and seem more functional instead of engraved and decorational. They also follow the whole spine. They seem to add structural stability to the soft bronze. Similar to the I-beam like wide spine on Indo Persian blades like the pesh kabz or the Korean kitchen knife :-p

That functional reason of strengthening soft metal by geometry would explain why multiple societies used that pattern and how it copied over into more recent times and in Nepal even until today.

If that historical connection is true then the decorative sword of Shiva is simply mimicking a functional old blade feature.
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Oh I dont doubt that Jens. I was referring only to the recent "fullers" (SOS) on HI are obviously not for structural reasons. I would hope that anyone could agree there. Raised ribs, "I" beams etc as in Kyber knives etc are obvious structural features for whatever specific reason whether it be chain mail, armour piercing or whatever. A scribed line down the length of the blade is hardly what I would call structural enhancement.

Jackal_89 said:
...
ndoghouse: You're gonna show pictures of those gigantic bowies until I break down and buy one aren't you?
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Yep!:D You aint done it yet? What ya waitin fer?
 
ndoghouse said:
Oh I dont doubt that Jens. I was referring only to the recent "fullers" (SOS) on HI are obviously not for structural reasons. I would hope that anyone could agree there. Raised ribs, "I" beams etc as in Kyber knives etc are obvious structural features for whatever specific reason whether it be chain mail, armour piercing or whatever. A scribed line down the length of the blade is hardly what I would call structural enhancement.


Yep!:D You aint done it yet? What ya waitin fer?
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I wasn't refuting anything you said.
I just saw a link between the functional pattern in the very past to the engraved similar pattern later on, which seems to be found across many cultures.

The fullers on today's Kukris are of course still functional but in addition to these they still have the engraving which is similar to a very old worldwide spread engraved pattern and in my opinion might be linked to an even older functional blade geometry.
 
Jens Schuetz said:
I wasn't refuting anything you said.
I just saw a link between the functional pattern in the very past to the engraved similar pattern later on, which seems to be found across many cultures.

The fullers on today's Kukris are of course still functional but in addition to these they still have the engraving which is similar to a very old worldwide spread engraved pattern and in my opinion might be linked to an even older functional blade geometry.
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Oh i didnt mean you refuted what i refuted that you refuted what i refuted...just now..;). I agree everything you said. Just meant it was likely carried over from older traditional features as you said. Sorry for the refuted confusion. Dang that hurt!
 
Lol. I bet it's my words. Typing while thinking.
I might put my theory into an easier to read format and then maybe even try to find some blade person in a museum or some professor in archeology. That pattern is so widespread it would be weird if there isn't somebody who doesn't know a bit more about it. But if we are the first ones to notice that's also exciting. Maybe partner up with somebody and produce a research paper. :-D
 
Some Kopis and even Kopeshs have it. Koras I don't know.
Just checked. Yep it's there in some.

There aren't many cultures left which don't have it.

I couldn't find it on old double edged and symetric viking swords. Couldn't find any Scandinavian bronze age (or early iron age ) weapon yet.
Though some reproductions of single edged seax type viking knives have it but that's not really reliable unless we know what they copied. Or can one asume they carried the same stuff other germanic tribes had?

Now I'm checking Chinese museum blades and then Japan. Since recent Katana are well researched I'm sure more ancient japanese blades might be as well.

Mmh Japan only started to make their own swords 900ad. What few swords where online from that time didn't have that engraved double line or similar feature. Some later Tanto however show it.

lol. Some Dadaos and older single edged Chinese swords have two (sometimes 3) lines parallel to the spine. All bronze swords I could find where double edged and thus don't feature anything like it.

Now off to Russia.
OK. Black Sea Yataghans two decorative lines on some. Probably from Ottoman empire times.

From what I've seen and not surprisingly that pattern can't be found on any native American metal weapon. Still great to know that they had metal instruments. Didn't hear that in high school. In fact the only metal used by natives which was mentioned was gold.

Back to the two lines, what are other cultures one could check? Some south and central African maybe?
 
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I have an 1866 French Yatagan that has a wide squared fuller down the blade. That could be interpreted as "two lines" I suppose. Its actually more of an I beam cross section shape with an edge on one side. They are not decorative tho.
Interesting research Jens:thumbup:
 
Jackal_89 said:
The cho also has a function though.
...
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yes. it serves as a sight for long range throwing. everyone knows that ;) you throw it horizontally like a boomerang or frisbee and it can glide up to half a mile when done correctly. khukuri snipers fitted optical sights to them for even longer ranges with the bigger khukuri. they are rare now and seldom seen. i think their use and design is still classified top secret. to hide it they publish the official line that it is a drip stop for blood tho anyone who has used one knows that it doesn't work like that & your hands get messy anyway... truly an amazing weapon that you can aim, throw and it will come back to you ready for the next target. the steam powered gatling khukuri thrower used the cho (aka kaudi) as part of it's feeding mechanism. the device was so deadly it is now banned by a special addendum to the geneva convention.
 
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I hadn't heard they were officially banned. Probably a good thing. Pretty nasty thing it is.
 
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