Killer pepper spray

J

Jeff

Joined
Nov 2, 1998
Messages
413

Though the suspect's health was probably the determining factor here, I wonder what brand of OC was used?

I have heard several stories in the past of "homicide by pepper spray", such incidents usually being ascribed to the victim's medical condition or getting peppered when restrained.
Jeff

Man Doused With Pepper Spray Dies
WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. (AP) -- A man with a history of heart trouble died Saturday after being doused with pepper spray by a hospital security officer, authorities said.
Willie E. Simmons, 57, was barred by a court order from the grounds of the Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center, where his estranged wife works. When he showed up at the hospital early Saturday, four security staffers followed him to a nearby Comfort Inn, where he scuffled with the officers and was pepper sprayed, said Winston-Salem police Lt. Fred Jones.
Attempts to resuscitate Simmons failed and he died later at the hospital. An autopsy is being performed.
Simmons recently had a heart attack and underwent heart surgery, said his brother, Benjamin Simmons.
''If he got away, they should have let him go on about his business,'' Benjamin Simmons said. ''That makes me mad.''
Hospital spokeswoman Karen Richardson said security officers followed Simmons because other medical center offices are near the hotel. Officers also wanted to warn hotel employees about Simmons, and alert police to his whereabouts.
''The officers followed proper procedure ... but they had to defend themselves at some point and use pepper spray,'' she said.
The State Bureau of Investigation is investigating.
 
Four guys couldn't handle one 57-year old heart patient without pepper spray?
 
I think that hospital is going to be in almost as much trouble as the hospital in Chicago(?) that let the kid die in the parking lot because they had a policy that didn't allow the staff to leave the Emergency Department.


Mike
 
As long as the security officers were using an appropriate level of force, I see no case for misbehavior.

The person was presumably to be known to be violent or at least threatening, as a restraining order had been issued.

The security officers had a duty to advise hospital employees of this risk to them, and they also deemed it necessary to warn the hotel employees and advise the police of his presence and misbehavior in violating the restraining order.

His heart condition probably played a minor role, if any, in his death. Remember he had had recent surgery (presumably a bypass or angioplasty). The purpose of this surgery is to restore the proper circulation to the heart, and it was presumably successful, as almost all are.

It is far more likely that he had a secondary pulmonary event such as bronchospasm (acute airway narrowing; like asthma) from the pepper spray. This bronchospasm could lower his oxygen level in his blood and he could go into cardiopulmonary arrest from this hypoxia. This is even more likely given his past medical history, as it is standard practice to put post heart attack patients on drugs called beta blockers. These drugs tend to exacerbate bronchospasm.

I identify with this patient a lot, as I had a heart attack and bypass at age 50, and am on a beta blocker.

If I were to suffer this man's fate, I would hope that my family would realize that I had made two horrible decisions, voluntarily, which cost me my life: violating a restraing order, and struggling with security officers who only wanted to talk with me. In the unlikely event that this should occur, I alone would be at fault.

Walt
 
MNH; when I was working as an ER MD in Oakland, CA, a young man passed out on the sidewalk in the same block as the hospital. A nurse from the ER commandeered some help, got a gurney, and went to the patient, loaded him onto the gurney, and brought him back to the ER, where he was successfully treated.

The nurse was disciplined, as policy demanded that an ambulance be called.

Walt
 
Walt,

I do see your point on the pepper spray. There is not enough information to really know what happened. There are cases where someone has a restraining order placed against them and are never even informed of it.

My initial problem with the situation is that if the security personnel are hospital employees without law enforcement powers they are no different than any private citizen, especially when they leave the hospital grounds. It would be like you or me chasing a burglar down the street and killing him (accidentally) when he stopped running and turned to defend himself. At that point the security guards were the aggressors, not the man who was killed.

As you perhaps remember my wife is a charge nurse in our local ER. Our ER personnel is out in the parking lot all the time getting patients out of cars, and in one or two cases responding to MVAs at a near by intersection from the ER on foot.

I hope the discipline that the nurse in Oakland received was a letter inserted in her (his) file stating that Hospital policy was violated, and that a life was saved in the process.


Mike
 
This is not the first time pepper spray has killed the "sprayee". Several years ago W-S police were in the process of apprehending a guy for drug sales and he got belligerent so the officers gave him a spritz of the spray and put him in the back of the cruiser. A little while later, he died in custody.

It's too early to tell what will happen with the WFUBMC case. The guy's wife works there and she has a restraining order against him. He violated that this past Saturday and campus security was notified to usher him off the premises. W-S police were also notified and were en route. The guy tried to flee the security officers and the officers took off after him, trying to detain him until the WSPD arrived (IT is policy that they stay with a suspect until the PD arives). They caught up to him at a local motel not too far from the Med Center, and that's where the spraying incident occurred. Chief of hospital security defended his officers on the news last night, saying they were doing as they were instructed to do and nothing out of line.

------------------
AKTI Member # A000005
NC Knife Knuts Member
Living life "on the edge"
 
It is nice to see the chief of security standing up for his guys. That is rare enough these days.


Mike
 
AS far as four guys having to use pepper spray against one man, in my friends dept. pepper spray is a lower use of force than hands.
 
The fact that four security guards had to use pepper spray is a further indicator that the man was acting irrationally. In the ER, when we had to confront someone, we would do so with several people. The natural response when confronted with overwhelming force is to cooperate. That this man chose to fight is highly suggestive of an irrational aggressive person.

Walt
 
In England. Guns are not the norm.

If I was confronted by police with CS spray/telescopic baton/fire-arm, I would comply. I have no sympathy with people who complain of injury if they resist arrest.

In my county, the armed police have this to say:

He said: "The last thing we want to do is to pull the trigger but we will if we have to. We carry CS spray, a telescopic baton and a set of handcuffs because we are trained to use minimum force."

Sgt Knight added: "It is a rare occurance that we have to actually use our weapons. In the last 12 years firearms have been discharged only three times, twice to destroy dogs that were posing a serious threat to officers and only once at armed suspects."

"Between Feb 1999 & Feb 2000, armed officers went on 36 pre-planned operations in Hertfordshire. They also attended 41 spontaneous response calls involving the use or suspected use of firearms in the county."

So while I have a one in three chance of being stopped by an ARV or one arriving if I dial 999 or 112, I'd rather they used CS than guns!!

I don't know the details of the CS spray incidents mentioned above, but they must have been asking for it. If you can't afford to get hurt, why go looking for a fight?

This is the Police site: http://www.herts.police.uk/specialprojects/ARVs.htm
 
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