Kinetic opening?--Give me a break!

P

paul sager

Joined
Dec 11, 2000
Messages
7
Let me say at once that I am no martial artist. My idea of knife self defense is to use it to gain some space, get the other guy off you, and then get the hell out of there. Nevertheless...

I am absolutely incredulous that the kinetic opening idea has gained a degree of credibility. In a self defense scenario, the mere idea of holding a knife in a pinch grip (which basically means that it is only held by the thumb), and forcefully ramming it up against another object, gives me the chills. I can't think of a surer recipe for being disarmed. I have no doubt that Bram and some other world class martial artists can do something in this line, but to suggest that the typical, or even trained, user should consider doing this seems to me to border on the irresponsible. Contrast the "pinch grip" idea with Bob Kasper's opinion expressed this year in a "Tactical Knives" article, to the effect that even a saber grip (thumb on top of the blade) is not advisable in a combat situation. Kasper said he now wraps his thumb completely around the handle. Set me straight on this please if I am missing something.
 
Paul,

Pretty strong judgements from someone that apparently hasn't worked with the tool in question or trained with the man that designed it.

Kinetic opening is just another option on how one can open the Gunting. One does not fight with the Gunting in the pinch grip. I think you are reading a little too much into it.

How do you open your folder? With a full grip around the handle? Does the blade magically pass through your fingers, or do you have to pinch the handle as you thumb open the blade? In your example of "getting someone off you". If the BG is within contact range as you draw, isn't your grip relatively weak at the moment you are thumbing it open. A kinetic opening allows you still to have all four fingers, your palm and thumb controlling the handle as you use the BG to open the blade. The oversized spoon clip also gives more to hold on to when opening the knife. As soon as the blade is locked, transition to your normal grip. Similar in usage as an anchor type opening. No big deal.

Of course a fixed blade, or better yet a shotgun, would make a better choice at the higher levels of force, but that's not always an option.

You may not need to even open the Gunting if a few well placed strikes will do.

The Gunting/kinetic openings have been used successfully on the street in real time. Why bad mouth something that has been successful on the street for others. If you don't like/believe in kinetic opening, fine. Don't use it. Simple as that.
 
While we're on the subject...

Maybe we could get a couple examples of where it's been used on the street? Did I miss a thread or something? Not challenging you, just genuinely curious... I remember one anecdote, guy who was getting hassled in a bar, and I think that /might/ have been the Escalator, not the Gunting, but I'm not sure...

Anyone out there actually used this thing for more than smacking together wooden boxes or opening mail?
 
James,
That was an Escalator!Paul,one of my students,LEO broke a guys wrist,who was fighting & going for the officers weapon! Me, I'm just an average M/A but take the time to look at Bram's tapes,take a Seminar with Bram, Steve or Jody or some other who carries the G.!
You will be surprised,not knocking your post, just trying to help!
jim
 
interesting specialized design

It is not for everyone. It is not for me.

As a student of IMA, I prefer FBs and folders that are not of specialized design.

Bill
 
I have no martial arts training at all...But after watching Bram's tapes and a few hours of practice with a couple of friends I belive the kinetic opener is a lot easier to operate in a time of high stress than a regular folder... However I am sure the Gunting is not for everbody....
 
I will soon post a new topic concerning the day I spent with BRAM here, at MILIPOL show.
I can say that kinetic opening works. It worked on my leg , on my hand, even on my clothings.
I have many bruises to prove Gunting works.
Don't judge anything without seriously trying it first.
By the way, French Military Police, who's controling a big part of the territory, is really interested in the Gunting.
 
I have to make a correction, my english is not as good as it used to be !!! Kinetic opening worked on my ARM, hand, clothings.
Never try on your leg !!!
 
You don't believe in Kinetic opening?
OK fine..no problem..
your loss..
sounds blunt?
it is..
Kinetic opening can be done with extreme force and intent..and it freaking hurts the opponent..
or it can be so soft that its not felt till the blade bites.

I've NEVER lost my GUNTING..and I slam n jam with plenty of big boys from lots of agencies, some of whom would love to show me it doesn't work..
Only it always works.

sorry if thats too short or blunt a response for ya..I'm real tired and I'm still on European time..its about 6 hours ahead for me...I've been over seas teaching other countries spec-ops, police and anti terrorist agencies the use of the GUNTING and kinetic opening..

hell I was @ MILIPOL showiing it off and it never let me down there either..

oh well

you don't think it works..no problemo..don't use the Gunting nor any of the new Kinetic knives that will be coming out soon..
you just ignore them..

Have a great day..

Boy I'm a real pisser when I'm tired and jet lagged!
 
Excellent point!

This is why it does not work for me.

The problem is I am a civilian. The big boys and agencies that you "jam" with dont want me to carry a knife, let alone be trained in how to use it. My question is this why "telegraph", through a specialized design, that you are a civilian with some training?

I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful with this post.

Bill
 
don't use the Gunting nor any of the new Kinetic knives that will be coming out soon..
Click to expand...

Will this

*heavy breathing*

be a

*more heavy breathing*

a Gunting with a longer blade?

*feeling all giddy inside*

Looking forward to the new designs :D

/Colinz

(Edit splelling...)
 
Sometimes obtuseness is unique..
I pointed out the agencies boys because they have a need to see it work real time..they want to do everything possible to point ou WHY they cam make it not work..
and the average LEO has less time to screw around training than any civilian..it has to work NOW with minimal training and practice..
This ain't rocket science..
its limb destruction..
DTL..destroy trap n lock concepts..
Anybody can do it...

Any civilian can make it work..
Can you open 'n close your arms? if so you can do t..
Can you use a hammer?
if so you can do it..
can you utilize gross motor skills in panic?
you can do it!
I've shown pepople with use of only one arm and partial fingers to use it..

Again, this isn't rocket science nor some magically designed cure all..
its a well designed tool that works..



The Baby GUNTING: the TUSOK..is under development..Those at the New York knife Show saw it..the MILIPOL Show it was a big hit...
its small, will have nested liners, compression lock, FRN handles..2" curved blade, very cool indexing and clip to make it a Spyderco first Kerambit type knife... fast and light..
Kinetic open spinning to reverse and slice 'n dice..how nice..



see ya..
I'm off out of town again!
 
As to the article referencing Bob Kasper, I don't believe he siad he no longer uses the saber grip, I believe he has only reduced the situations for it's use.

Copis, I see your point. However, if you are leaglly justified to carry a knife in your locale, then there shouldn't be any issue. If you can't carry a knife, then there would be an issue. If you have to use the knife in self defense, there might be an issue. I have found through a little homework that if the police have issue with you carrying a knife, other than commiting a serious offense, you have probably caused them grief in some way and they want to cause you some grief. I beleive that most of law enforcement doesn't want to take away our guns or knives, it's the politically motivated administration that wants to.
 
The "G" is also the best knife, IMHO, for use with heavy winter gloves. Not an issue for some, but here it becomes a factor sometimes. Using the ramp or kinetic opening is my favorite way to deploy a folder fast.

Bram,

When are you going to post those Lapu-Lapu pics? (not a kinetic opener, but a very cool design). Faster than a kinetic opener or a Wave anyway. LOL :D
 
Bram:

Good luck on the new projects, that little kinetic opener sounds like a must have.
 
Dirk,

I am not so sure that is the case, but I guess you are.We can theorize...

When it comes to personal safety I will take no chances. It is the person behind the knife and not the knife. In a professional MA journal article there is a "Mr. Wagner" who believes that schools that teach knife are THUG schools. He also believes that knife should only be taught to LEOs. This joker believes that Sep11 happened, because civlians are taught knife....

Carry what you want but be careful!

Bill
 
Copis, I don't keep up with MA journals that much, could you refer me to the particular journal and issue that has this 'wagner' characters article? I've yet to hear this kind of perspective from any individual 'within' the MA community. In fact I've not heard anything like it from non-MA people either.

Everyone's got an opinion and their right to voice it, but if they are in an influential position to an unquestioning populace, it threatens our future rights, and there's a problem.

It's sad that this kind of individual may have students.

Ken
 
I just wanted to address a couple of points-

The Gunting is truely the easiest folder out there to hand open with heavy gloves. The huge Gunting ramp works very well to open it with large gloves. Many blades are very difficult to open with gloves of any type.

The beauty of the Gunting is that you can carry a drone where "knives" legality is questionable. I really wish Sal would get the blue Crimpts out so we can have a proper force tool, rather than pressing the red drones into service. I am a police officer and can generally carry pretty much whatever I want, but I find myself carrying the red drone more than the live blade, because I like the fact that that the red Gunting does not have a lethal capability, and I can deploy it in scenarios where force is neccesary, but not lethal force.

Kinetic opening works. If you have ever trained with Bram you will find that you will end up doing some real hard core banging. I recently hosted an edged weapons seminar where Bram taught. Nobody ever "lost" a Gunting during some pretty serious poundings. Guntings have been deployed by both civilians and police officers in the real world with outstanding results-period. You can also easily kinetic open the knife without losing it with great ease.

The Gunting flat works, and I really think Sal needs to get the blue ones out. In todays world, knives as force tools are considered taboo. The Gunting is in my opinion one of the best less than lethal force tools out there. It is easy to learn and to work with, you just have to be a little serious about self defense. If you carry a $25 folder with no training for self defense, then you are setting yourself up for failure. The Gunting allows the carry of one tool that will function in a variety of scenarios, you just have to be dedicated to working with it a little. Nothing is free in this world, success takes work. "I'm not a martial artist" is a big fat cop out. I am not a martial artist either, but I take training to save my life and the lives of others seriously.
 
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