Kiridashi bevel angle?

Diego_B

Diego_B

Joined
Aug 17, 2020
Messages
260
Hello I have a quick question here about kiridashi bevel angles. I am new to this forum and am open to everyone’s opinion and want to learn what I can. So my question is what exactly is the bevel angle on a traditional kiridashi? 20, 17, 25 degrees? I’ve looked and looked and can’t find a solid answer. Yes I am talking about a chisel grind as well with no micro bevel and a flat back. I have a made a couple and really enjoy them for general use in the shop. My most recent one is around 17 degrees made from 1095 3/16th stock with an interrupted quench with 2 secs in brine and 2 secs in canola oil around 120 degrees, tempered at 400 for two one hour cycles. From now on I plan to forge them rather stock removal from 1084 rather 1095 for simplicity. Also another quick question Is 1/8th thick kiridashi too thin or is it still suitable for use without a handle?
 
I’d say it depends on intended use. For general utility you might want to go up to 30 but for fine cutting 20 is probably good. I have done mine anywhere from 20-30 and then decided I didn’t like a chisel for general utility use and went to a double bevel ground very close to zero then sharpened with a small secondary bevel. I use 0.08”-0.11” stock but pretty much always wrap them. The chisel is useful for some shop tasks. My 2-cents as a newer guy.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
The primary bevel is determined by the height you want it to go up the blade. It's actual angle does not matter.
The secondary angle at the edge is a small bevel and would be between 15 and 30 degrees depending on use.
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In this case with a true chisel grind though without the secondary angle at the edge it would affect the cutting behavior and edge strength.
 
Good topic, I have been wanting to make a hand full of these.
 
I would say, with almost 100% certainty, that no ancient Japanese smith worried about the exact angle on a kiridashi.
It's like worring about what the angle that the taper on a nail is forged at.
 
A.McPherson said:
I would say, with almost 100% certainty, that no ancient Japanese smith worried about the exact angle on a kiridashi. It's like worring about what the angle that the taper on a nail is forged at.
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Thank you guys for letting me pick your brain. Im trying to educate myself as much and I never fall short of asking questions as I see no better way to learn but asking more experienced people and this site is a tremendous help. But Yes I do see where the actual bevel height of the kiridashi can be purely for looks which it seems to be that way mostly and most people seem to not care whether it’s at 30 or 17 degrees. But I have been wanting to make a kiridashi for a friend that is getting into leather work and I just wanted to really have an answer as too what the bevel angle is so that I know what I am talking about and what I am shooting for when grinding as well as for the sake of my OCD trying to keep things close to perfect and organized. So for my next dashi I think I will just begin my grind going for 30 degrees and see how it feels and may bump it down to 20
 
i rarely measure and it depends on heat treat/steel but I think 30 degrees would be a really good start for a zero bevel chisel grind.
 
:D:D:DJust so people here know I plan on making my next kiridashi out of Aldos 1084 with a chisel grind and a flat back, no sec bevel. I will heat treat in a forge, quench in canola, and temper at 375-400? I want to try and keep as much hardness as I can without being too brittle obviously. But I’m a little surprised on how most don’t really seem worried about the angle of their kiridashi I just thought that those selling their kiridashi’s would try and make them to a certain angle for professional reasons and a peace of mind I guess and not just grind on a edge. Hmm maybe I’m wrong but that’s why I’m here :D
 
Diego_B said:
:D:D:DJust so people here know I plan on making my next kiridashi out of Aldos 1084 with a chisel grind and a flat back, no sec bevel. I will heat treat in a forge, quench in canola, and temper at 375-400? I want to try and keep as much hardness as I can without being too brittle obviously. But I’m a little surprised on how most don’t really seem worried about the angle of their kiridashi I just thought that those selling their kiridashi’s would try and make them to a certain angle for professional reasons and a peace of mind I guess and not just grind on a edge. Hmm maybe I’m wrong but that’s why I’m here :D
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I have made well over 3500 knives and tested quite a few of them but have never measured my angles on fixed blades. When it comes to framelocks I cut every lock face at an exact angle I have set on a gauge because I feel that is important. Testing is what is really important! Nothing wrong with measuring either...

There are other variables like how thin the edge is and how the microbevel is cut in. I like an extremely thin edge and a steeper microbevel.

Phill Hartsfield ground his knives on a jig to a set angle, they were almost all zero ground A2.
 
Diego_B said:
:D:D:DJust so people here know I plan on making my next kiridashi out of Aldos 1084 with a chisel grind and a flat back, no sec bevel. I will heat treat in a forge, quench in canola, and temper at 375-400? I want to try and keep as much hardness as I can without being too brittle obviously. But I’m a little surprised on how most don’t really seem worried about the angle of their kiridashi I just thought that those selling their kiridashi’s would try and make them to a certain angle for professional reasons and a peace of mind I guess and not just grind on a edge. Hmm maybe I’m wrong but that’s why I’m here :D
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Ultimately whether it holds up to its intended use with your steel and your heat treat is the important part. The angle just allows you to compare iterations so you know how to make the next one.
 
Diego_B said:
Thank you guys for letting me pick your brain. Im trying to educate myself as much and I never fall short of asking questions as I see no better way to learn but asking more experienced people and this site is a tremendous help. But Yes I do see where the actual bevel height of the kiridashi can be purely for looks which it seems to be that way mostly and most people seem to not care whether it’s at 30 or 17 degrees. But I have been wanting to make a kiridashi for a friend that is getting into leather work and I just wanted to really have an answer as too what the bevel angle is so that I know what I am talking about and what I am shooting for when grinding as well as for the sake of my OCD trying to keep things close to perfect and organized. So for my next dashi I think I will just begin my grind going for 30 degrees and see how it feels and may bump it down to 20
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Hey kiridashi......................:)
Lot of angles there ...............choose for yourself :p
KS2eLwy.png
 
Woodworking chisels are sharpened at 30°, but they have a very short bevel. That is not the same as a knife.

If you made a kiridashi with a single 30° bevel and it was .125" thick the bevel would be .25" high (regardless of blade height). If you wanted the shinogi .5" up the side of the blade, the angle would be 14° (regardless of blade height). This would be fine for a fine catting kiridashi, but would fail at harder working ones.

By making the bevel to whatever height you wish for looks (about half way up) you will need a micro-bevel if you want the edge angle more than 15°. The micro-bevel also allows for quicker subsequent sharpening without the need to regrind the entire main bevel. It is basically the same situation as a Scandi grind.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Woodworking chisels are sharpened at 30°, but they have a very short bevel. That is not the same as a knife.

If you made a kiridashi with a single 30° bevel and it was .125" thick the bevel would be .25" high (regardless of blade height). If you wanted the shinogi .5" up the side of the blade, the angle would be 14° (regardless of blade height). This would be fine for a fine catting kiridashi, but would fail at harder working ones.

By making the bevel to whatever height you wish for looks (about half way up) you will need a micro-bevel if you want the edge angle more than 15°. The micro-bevel also allows for quicker subsequent sharpening without the need to regrind the entire main bevel. It is basically the same situation as a Scandi grind.
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Yes Stacy I think this is what I was trying to get at. But now I realize that a wood chisel is not the same as a kiridashi because of the bevel height being only .25 up the blade, seeing that probably wouldn’t be suitable for a kiridashi. But what about a scandi grind mora knife? From what I see the bevel does not go up very high so is there a certain degree as to what the bevels are ground to? Or is it all for looks now and a micro is added every time? Sorry if I’m making this thread spin in circles but I’m just trying to clear up what I know about chisel/scandi grinds.
 
Diego_B said:
Yes Stacy I think this is what I was trying to get at. But now I realize that a wood chisel is not the same as a kiridashi because of the bevel height being only .25 up the blade, seeing that probably wouldn’t be suitable for a kiridashi. But what about a scandi grind mora knife? From what I see the bevel does not go up very high so is there a certain degree as to what the bevels are ground to? Or is it all for looks now and a micro is added every time? Sorry if I’m making this thread spin in circles but I’m just trying to clear up what I know about chisel/scandi grinds.
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A scandi grind truly for woodworking the degree does matter and is sharpened without a microbevel. I make spoon carving knives with my brother who is an avid spoon carver and we make two knives one lower angle for roughing work and that’s 25deg inclusive then we make a finishing knife that’s 30deg inclusive and they behave differently while carving. It comes down to intended use once again and this one is pretty specific if you ask me.
 
imill3567 said:
A scandi grind truly for woodworking the degree does matter and is sharpened without a microbevel. I make spoon carving knives with my brother who is an avid spoon carver and we make two knives one lower angle for roughing work and that’s 25deg inclusive then we make a finishing knife that’s 30deg inclusive and they behave differently while carving. It comes down to intended use once again and this one is pretty specific if you ask me.
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Ok so scandi grinds on bushcraft type knives the bevel does matter. So Something that is intended for bush crafting a scandi bevel to 25 degrees would suffice assuming that your not going to beat the crap out of it and deform the edge and that it had a good HT. But a kiridashi chisel grind angle does not really matter as long as it’s pleasing to the eye because if it was ground to say 30 degrees like a wood chisel it simply wouldn’t look or work right. This is where the micro bevel then comes in on a kiridashi to make up for the low bevel angle on the kiridashi to protected the primary bevel from edge damage. So how exactly do you guys micro bevel a kiridashi chisel grind? Do you apply the bevel to the back (flatpart) of the knife? To the bevel side? Or to both sides?
 
Diego_B Diego_B I double bevel mine now so both sides but if it was a chisel I’d do it on the bevel side keep the back flat so you at least maintain some benefit of the chisel grind otherwise what’s the point just double bevel it.
 
Alright that sounds right and it makes sense in order to keep the back flat. After all that is the point of the kiridashi.
 
I’m surprised it’s not a precise angle as the Japanese are know for repeatability. Yes it might be correlated to something like when the sun is one diameter off the Horizon. But thy are usually very methodical with edged blades.
 
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