Kitchen knives, the weekend special

A

adimo

Joined
Apr 13, 2015
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To all knife people out there, please spread the good faith. A friend of mine asked me to sharpen some kitchen knives for him. Now I am writing in frustration to all of you to give advice if asked for or not. I am not going to say what make these knives are. The first one went on a 600 grit diamond stone, then on 800 ceramic and I was planning to finish on a strop with green compound. And I tried, and tried, and tried, and went back and forth and was unable to get a good edge on those knives. In the end I gave up and butchered the edge in a pull-through sharpener (at least it's a Henckels) and then finished a bit on the ceramic rod. Now at least they sort of a half decent paper slice. (To find peace, I stropped a bit more my BK-2 that I re-profiled and convexed and now shaves easily)
Please go out and tell people to stay away from the weekend 24 knife special with a "real" wood block included. Tell them to get a chef's knife, a paring knife and a peeler (personally I don't think you need more in a kitchen), and buy from a reputable knife company. Tell them to research the steel and heat treat. This forum will teach them what to look for, as it thought me, and they will avoid the space age creations of some pots and pans company.
I also did all of the above, a few times, but got no love back. Then I stopped.
Now I'm done with my rant and have to go back to fix the Santoku.
 
I am quite well versed in the kitchen knife market in case someone comes to me for a recommendation. I even know all of the right questions to ask to guide them to decent knives within their budget and skill sets.

I have taken some pretty cheap "value" kitchen knives and given them exceptionally good edges, better than they ever had from the factory. You just have to match the sharpening tools to the steel type.

Why won't you mention the brand? That could give some insight as to why you had problems with that progression.
 
In my experience, the hardest knives to sharpen are the cheap ones with gummy stainless steel blades. They develop a very persistent burr that is difficult to remove.

To the OP: Did you look at the edge under magnification? It is very helpful to learn what’s happening at the edge. If the edge couldn’t shave arm hair off the 600 grit, you hadn’t achieved a clean apex yet.
 
I'm home Victorinox makes a good knife, and I'd just recommend them to anyone looking for decent kitchen cutlery on a budget.

Btw my mom has a cheapo Ronco cutlery set and they're actually ok, I don't think I'd recommend anyone get them but I've used them a lot as a teenager ( she's had them.almost 10 years ) and they did come really sharp and still cut well though I'm not sure about sharpening.
 
I understand completely about the lack of quality in kitchen knives. A while back, I used one of the knives in the kitchen at the church my wife attends (wow, talk about a sad knife) to cut up a few things for a get together we hosted in the fellowship hall.... And after telling her about (or complaining about) the experience, I ended up being volunteered to sharpen all the church's knives and keep them tuned up. Since there are at least half a dozen chef's knives, plus a gaggle of utility and paring knives, this was a bit more than I expected to be getting into.

The first sharpening on a few of them was scary. One knife in particular had the same edge geometry as the spine of one of the butter knives I own.
View media item 2127How do you like the bevel on those?

I spent hours manually sharpening and getting the knives as sharp as I possibly could (which was barely enough to barely cut newspaper), and most don't keep an edge. (I know my technique is not perfect, but I can shave arm hair with the knives in my kitchen block, so skill level is probably not a factor here) Thankfully, the church's knives are not used all that hard or that often.

I am saving up a some cash so I can donate a bunch of Victorinox kitchen knives to replace all of the existing knives and make my life a little easier. That way, at least there is a known and well respected base level of quality involved, and I can work from there.

Enjoy
 
jc57 said:
Why won't you mention the brand? That could give some insight as to why you had problems with that progression.
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The knives are Hampton Forge Signature. In the end they took an edge I did polish it somewhat with the ceramic rod. I have to admit they sliced through thin catalogue paper by the time I was done.

In my own "arsenal," the pleasant surprise is a "Berlin Kuche" 13.5" chef knife. I tried to research the brand but couldn't find much on it. The thing takes a good edge quickly and holds it well. I bought it originally from a discount store mainly because on the right side of the blade there is a HRC dimple and that gave me some confidence.

For a rather budget kitchen knife, I would direct people towards Mora, Cold Steel or Victorinox. Pesonally I have the Berlin Kuche and some Henckels (chef, paring, thin slicer), none of them Zwilling. I am not so great in the kitchen and those knives serve me well with not much than occasional stropping. My money goes rather into buschcaft knives. Latest addition is a Roselli Wootz, and that one just rocks!
 
adimo said:
...
Please go out and tell people to stay away from the weekend 24 knife special with a "real" wood block included. Tell them to get a chef's knife, ....
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Why?

The vast majority of people are perfectly happy with that inexpensive set and their pull through sharpener. (I see you use one.) Eventually they just buy a new set.

Why tell them to do otherwise?

They aren't sushi chefs. They aren't butchering sides of beef. The serrated steak knife in their drawer is going to take care of all their needs really.

Heck Bourdain suggests the F Dick offset serrated knife. Unknown metal, 25 bucks, never sharpen it.

It's like you are saying everybody should drive Mercedes or use Mont Blanc pens.
 
I think the victorinox kitchen knives are a great value and i would recommend them to anyone looking for good kitchen knives on a budget. They cut so well and hold a good edge.
 
My folks had a menagerie of knives in the kitchen, everything from a serrated knife made in Japan in the 50's to some pretty decent Case kitchen knives. How they actually cut anything with some of them is a miracle.
 
I sharpened a friends kitchen knife not too long ago on one of those pull through sharpeners since that's what he had but since it had angles it reminded me of the crock stick style sharpeners so I sharpened it like you would on one of those and actually got a decent edge I used the carbide or coarse to sharpen then the ceramics to debur, I wouldn't use one if I had a choice but in a bind they work if you use them in this fashion
 
Ya know what's worse than having to use/sharpen cheap knives? Being asked to carve the turkey at your sister and brother-in-law's house, and every one of their Henkel (or maybe Wustoff) kitchen knives is duller than a shovel. The only sharpening device they have is one of those powered pull through contraptions. Besides the offence of using the noisy thing, it doesn't even work!

Thanksgiving's at our house this year. Smoking and carving with MY tools.
 
Top tip:

We often rent houses abroad for a Summer holiday. Although holidays involve eating out, we also buy local produce and cook it. Never once have I encountered sharp knives in any of these sometimes quite luxurious houses. I just take a DC4, previously a Lansky Puck for many years, and sharpen them soon after we arrive. It amuses my wife, but she still appreciates it when it’s her turn to cook.

Even on really bad steel, you can get a working apex with the diamond side very swiftly. Or, at least, I can, as I’ve spent years sharpening on stones. If you are out visiting and you know that you will be called on for chef duties, just spend a minute or two with a DC4 and you will at least have a usable knife.
 
adimo said:
The knives are Hampton Forge Signature. In the end they took an edge I did polish it somewhat with the ceramic rod. I have to admit they sliced through thin catalogue paper by the time I was done.
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Oddly enough, I sharpened one of those exact knives for a family member last year. The "Argentum Red" handled 8" chef's knife from that family. The edge was dull, dented, and chipped from poor care - tossed in the dishwasher and put in a drawer with other utensils. I used the coarse side of a Norton India to get rid of the chips and dents. It made short work of that. I refined on the fine side of the India stone, then used a hard Arkansas and stropped on leather with chromium oxide compound. That got it to where it was probably better than it had ever been. It would slice phonebook paper easily with no snags and the edge looked OK under a loupe.

The steel very readily formed a burr on all stones (even the Arkansas) which may be why you had some trouble with it. Took me a little work to get it fully deburred if I recall (it was about a year ago.) I remember thinking that the knife was more trouble than it was worth. I mean literally, they cost about $10 - not worth my time. Though if they had taken better care of it it wouldn't have needed so much work.

I don't know what ever became of it - they haven't brought it back and I haven't asked. I did three knives of different brands for them at that time that were all in bad shape, and gave them some blade protectors to at least keep down some of the drawer damage.
 
marcinek said:
The vast majority of people are perfectly happy with that inexpensive set and their pull through sharpener.
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Perhaps happy due to ignorance, but happy is happy. Sometimes it's better to remain blissfully unaware of better options. It can save you money.

marcinek said:
It's like you are saying everybody should drive Mercedes or use Mont Blanc pens.
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That's not what I got from his post. It sounded more like he was saying to not waste money on a set from an unknown source, when instead they could spend the same money by just focusing on the essentials and picking a better source.

adimo said:
Tell them to get a chef's knife, a paring knife and a peeler (personally I don't think you need more in a kitchen), and buy from a reputable knife company.
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Nowhere in there did the OP say to spend a lot of money. Many sets come with knives you don't need or rarely use, yet part of the cost of the set is those knives. Just focusing on the basics, and choosing a little better quality, can get you something that will work better, last longer, and still cost about the same. Or that's how I read it.
 
OP, what then do you recommend to your prospective knife buyer to maintain their knives?

I'm not trying to pin you down, only that I've been in this position. The average person won't be up for expensive SPA treatments, nor will they want to take the time to learn how to properly sharpen themselves. Yet they have a reasonable set of kitchen cutlery that doesn't deserve to be simply replaced when dull. (I'd add a serrated bread knife to your list BTW.) So, we are back to an overpriced, under-performing electric sharpener, or a pull-through.

I gave my daughters a reasonable set of cutlery when they struck out on their own, along with a ceramic rod and instructions on how to use it. So far they're doing a pretty good job, but it's still early. Ultimately the time will come when they either have to send it back to Dad or send it out. I'm willing to do the former for them, but not necessarily for others.

Funny story: Years ago now my family took the first leg of a 3 week trip around Lake Michigan in my brother in law's boat. One morning I came up on deck at the marina in Grand Haven to a commotion at the next slip. Turned out that a guy was coming in from a night time salmon run, and was having trouble tying up. I helped him out, so he thanked me by giving me a fine silver salmon. So, I figured I'd fillet it for dinner, but in searching the galley I only found an honest to goodness, only available on TV, buy now stock is limited, serrated Ginsu knife. I grabbed it, the fish, and my young daughter and walked over to the public fish cleaning station. Now, salmon and steelhead fishing is big on Lake Michigan, and Grand Haven had a beautiful sheltered, star-shaped stainless steel cleaning station, with a centrally placed industrial garbage disposal in the center. It had about 5 tables, and there were already a few guys there with the biggest fillet knives I've ever seen. I slap my fish down and gave it a think, finally deciding that steaking the fish was likely to be more successful than filleting it. I go at it, head buried in my work, feeling the other guys stares burning into the back of my neck. Well, it turned out quite well, the Ginsu was a champ. Even got some questions, when after I explained my predicament led to a nice conversation. My daughter was a trooper through all this, and had a lot of fun watching the guts go down the disposal. Maybe we should be recommending Ginsu knives.:D
 
I was a chef and was very schooled in sharpening inexpensive and expensive kitchen knives. I am also a pocket knife collector. What I had to learn was that the two categories had to be treated differently. I always use my KME sharpener with the diamond stones on my pocket knives but the kitchen knives have too much real estate to deal with. I decided to buy an electric sharpener and went with the Chefs Choice Model 130. It is well suited for the kitchen knives because the middle station is actually a diamond impregnated steel which is ideal for the kitchen. If you want a smoother edge the third station is a stopping station for other knives. It takes about 10-12 minutes to reprofile a blade and a couple of minutes to maintain the edge. This model sharpens at 40 degree inclusive. If you want to do it at 30 degree inclusive you can get the Trizor model, they also have one that does both. They are in P.A. and if you call them they will be very helpful. Another great thing about them is that when you have put the sharpener through the mill and it's not working well you send it back to them and they will refurbish the unit for $50 including a new motor. Great company and it will turn sharpening your kitchen knives a breeze and not a hassle.
 
Forgot to mention that the pull through sharpeners are the kiss of death for good knives especially if they are high carbon. They basically shred the edge.
 
What he said - I had a Chef's Choice up until a few years ago when I sold it at our yard sale. Yes, it will get a knife sharp(ish) but it tends to brutalize it in the process. Honestly though probably the best choice for cheap knives and at least it's something anyone can use... not that they will.

Seriously, when was the last time you went anywhere and the knives were sharp?

My current preference for reasonably priced kitchen knives ($50-100) are various Japanese blades you can get from a variety of sources, IMO you only "need" three kitchen knifes - large chef's, small chef's, and a paring knife. Maybe toss in the serrated guy for breads too. Of course even $50 for just one knife seems insane to some folks when they can get a giant block of crummy ones for less.
 
Icehawk said:
went anywhere and the knives were sharp?
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Ice, about 30 minutes ago when I went to my kitchen and cut up some fruit;):D Seriously, I agree (other than my daughter's).

I have looked at the CC sharpeners in the past. Maybe that's the solution, put your friends onto a reasonable set and then periodically sharpen em up for them on the CC out suggest they do the same.
 
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