KITH vs KITH

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I have been flooded with PMs and emails about the KITHs. I will make a few comments about my thoughts, and then ask you folks some questions. I want your true feelings. I have Rhino hide and can take criticism, so tell me what you really feel, because I want to know.

One, I don't own the KITH, it belongs to the Shop Talk guys who enter it. If I advise anyone, privately or online, it is because I want the KITH to operate well. If there are unhappy people, people who don't get knives, or other logistical problems....it affects everyone, and next year there will be less people. I believe that the lower number of repeat participants and senior makers is due to too many joining in too early in their knife making experience.

Two, I am not the KITH Police, head Knife Judge, or the one to "allow" someone to enter. If I feel that someone needs advise or suggestions, I offer it...usually privately. If they choose to disagree, that is their right. Unless I think it is a scam, I will let any member enter the KITH.

Three, I don't run the NEWBIE KITH, geek is handling that. I have advised him about KITH operation and given people suggestions about which KITH I feel they are ready for. Any decisions about that KITH and who enters it are the domain of Geek and the folks in that KITH. Any post I make on that KITH is as a forum member.

Four, I believe that you are a NEWBIE KITH maker or a CHRISTMAS KITH maker....you can't be both. I realize that the line of demarcation isn't as clearly drawn as it was with your virginity ( This does not apply to Sam, who was nearly unconscious both times and really doesn't remember when it happened. YOU should be the one to know when you are ready to move from one to the other. Be truthful with yourself, or ask for advise from someone who's opinion you respect.


B]OK, that is my thoughts. Now I have questions for the forum:[/B]

Do you guys want me to just let anyone who says, "I'm in." enter and let the chips fall where they may?
In the past we had an informal set or guidelines - Member of the forums for one year, and have participated on Shop Talk. Made roughly ten or more knives. Posted photos of your knives in the past. No past bad KITH record ( knife never delivered, etc.). From there we left it up to the maker to decide about his/her suitability, unless the moderator had some unusual reason to question a makers entry.

Do you folks want me to give advise on your knives and level of experience, or just sit back and moderate the KITH?
I only want the KITH to run well, and all who participate to have a positive experience. I don't make comments because I don't like you. I comment because I want you to improve. I don't wish ill on my worst enemy. Those of you who have known me for a while know that I just don't harbor hatred or bad will. It is a waste of time. If you never, ever, get a comment from me, I would worry more.


Let me know your thoughts.

 

[DanCo]

As one who does not post a tremendous amount, my opinion may not matter. That being said, I believe the informal guidelines are great. If you don't meet those guidelines then join the newbie kith. If you don't deliver in that one then you don't get to participate in any other kiths. It is like a qualifier per se. And when I do start posting pictures of my stuff I would welcome anything you ever said about my work.
Dan

 

[thegeek574]

I think your KITH is for the, dare I say it, elite knifemakers who put out beautiful work every time and are just looking to get something different. Mine is for those people who just want to get a new knife for the price of their best work and shipping. i think, at this point, you can start putting some more restrictions on who enters yours, and whoever still wants to do it can enter mine.

 

[tedinatl]

I personally don't think that how long you've been making knives matters quite as much - it should be about whether or not the knife entered is of a certain quality, and that it should be exchanged for something of similar quality. I've seen some newbie's 3rd or 4th knives that will knock the socks off of someone else's 100th knife. Don't misunderstand me - I'm not belittling the value of experience, but I do think that something is to be said for talent, and that should also be brought into the game.

Maybe someone (Stacy, or a small panel of experienced knifemakers who are willing to volunteer) should judge the knives entered (by looking at photo's etc.), and give it some ranking or grade (1 to 10, whatever), after which it is exchanged with knives of a similar ranking. Now this would add some additional work for Stacy (or some panel of judges).

Just my 2c.

 

[thegeek574]

the only problem with that is the fact that then it becomes a huge project for stacy who has to do this work to get something that started out as a fun thing. in the end, i think it will come down to people's discretion as to what league they are in, and maybe a bit of gentle prodding for those who got the wrong idea.

 

[Carl_First_Timer]

I'd go with the following for sorting purposes:

1. What blade forum account type you have.

2. How much experience you have. Knife making, as well as forum membership.

As for Stacy advising makers as to which KITH they should join, I think that is just fine.

Personally I would rather make the most appreciated knife in a KITH, and get nothing in return, than to receive a masterpiece in exchange for my 9th knife (Wow just realized nine already, time flies when having fun).

 

[thegeek574]

I'd go with the following for sorting purposes:

1. What blade forum account type you have.

2. How much experience you have. Knife making, as well as forum membership.

As for Stacy advising makers as to which KITH they should join, I think that is just fine.

Personally I would rather make the most appreciated knife in a KITH, and get nothing in return, than to receive a masterpiece in exchange for my 9th knife (Wow just realized nine already, time flies when having fun).

ummm, no thanks? so far, my steel budget for the year is about equal to the cost of a knifemaker membership, so, even if i get good with what i have, i would have to take money away from steel so that i could be in a KITH. i would be happy to open a open class one and have stacy run the paid membership version, though.

 

[Carl_First_Timer]

ummm, no thanks? so far, my steel budget for the year is about equal to the cost of a knifemaker membership, so, even if i get good with what i have, i would have to take money away from steel so that i could be in a KITH. i would be happy to open a open class one and have stacy run the paid membership version, though.

Didn't think about it like that.

I was thinking..."Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers KITH" open to qualified, paying members. But, being that they are not synonymous with each other you are correct.

 

[thegeek574]

I'm glad to know someone understands my ramblings

 

[jawilder]

I'd go with the following for sorting purposes:

1. What blade forum account type you have.

2. How much experience you have. Knife making, as well as forum membership.

As for Stacy advising makers as to which KITH they should join, I think that is just fine.

Personally I would rather make the most appreciated knife in a KITH, and get nothing in return, than to receive a masterpiece in exchange for my 9th knife (Wow just realized nine already, time flies when having fun).

I don't think membership account should have anything to do with this. I have not paid for the Knifemaker membership because I have not considered myself to be at that level yet. But I also know that some have paid for the knifemaker membership who have never made a singe knife.

I think maybe if one is on the fense, they should show pictures and let the forum decide which KITH they should join.

 

[Carl_First_Timer]

I don't think membership account should have anything to do with this. I have not paid for the Knifemaker membership because I have not considered myself to be at that level yet.

This kinda backs up my point though.

P.S. I am just discussing this please do not feel I am trying to prove my ideas better than anyone else. Just trying to give feedback without over thinking it. The "requirements" I posted were for the advanced KITH btw.

 

[jawilder]

Oh, you know you are better than everyone else, and it's just coming out It's good to have everyone's imput

 

[Carl_First_Timer]

Oh, you know you are better than everyone else, and it's just coming out It's good to have everyone's imput

lol I paid for gold to have my snazzy avatar. I'll be joining thegeek's KITH, as soon as I come up with an Idea.

I do not consider myself a knifemaker. In fact just today I was ordering from AKS and was asked if I am a knifemaker, and I had to pause, because I am making knives, but do not feel I deserve to be dubbed Knifemaker.

 

[Atlas Knife Company]

Are we leaning towards saying "Your knife is too good to give to a newbie KITH, you can only be in the main KITH." That only assures that the newbies don't get a knife good enough to be in the main KITH. Newbie should not equate to "not good enough". It should equate to having made less than a certain number of knives(ten or so). I've seen some very nice 2nd/3rd/11th knives and I've seen some poor 50th knives.

The newbie KITH should be one of your first X number of knives, the main KITH should be anything good enough to be on par with a majority of the others, regardless of number/experience. The two don't necessarily preclude each other. I take this topic personally because there was no newbie KITH last year, so as a new maker I submitted my second numbered knife(not including practice knives). I spent more time on that knife than any other 5 knives combined(except for my folder). Not a single person ever told me it wasn't good enough, and several people told me they really liked it. I'm pretty certain that Mostho likes it, he claims he uses it all the time. Should I have not been allowed to enter just because I was a newbie? I'm sure that some people thought so when I said I was in. I hope I proved them wrong.

Time to go home now. I hope this rambling sheds a little light from a different perspective.

 

[tryppyr]

For me the decision to join a KITH was not taken lightly. I realized that the expectations were high, and that it meant pushing myself to the limit. It also means a commitment (in addition to all the other commitments I have) that cannot be ignored. So I thought long and hard and decided I needed to take this step. I did not do it to get a knife, I did it to give my best and drive myself to do better.

When the KITH split I was conflicted. But, as I said before, I felt I had already made the commitment, and I honor my commitments. Am I one of the "elite"? Of course not. I'm under no illusions in that regard.

From where I sit this isn't about how advanced or experienced you are, it's about how much you are willing to commit.

My commitment is real. I'll make the best knife I can using the finest materials.

Whichever KITH someone chooses to be a part of, I hope they do the same. Make the commitment... not to someone else... to yourself. No compromises, no shortcuts, no half-ass efforts. Make the best knife you are capable of. Put yourself out there... all the way.

Otherwise, what's the point?

- Greg

 

[james terrio]

This is what happens when a forum gets big. Everybody with a modem and a dream jumps in, and naturally, not all of them can deliver.

As for me, I haven't signed up for any of the current KITH's because (in no particular order):
A) my Office Manager says I'm not allowed to give away any more knives this year
B) my PIF knife still isn't complete, and that takes precedence
C) a couple years ago I signed on for a KITH here and had to bow out, and the shame still haunts my conscience and probably my reputation.
D) I'm busy with the mundane affairs of running a business and working two jobs to support my family, and just don't have the time.

My advice? Don't sign up for a KITH unless you already have something you're proud of, ready to ship. You may well build something even better before the deadline, but don't promise chickens before they're hatched. Stuff comes up, no one wants to hear excuses if you're late or just can't get it done because your dog ran away or you lost your job, you will look and feel like an ass.

As far as skill level goes, I've given away my very best work and received junk that won't cut its way out of a wet paper bag in KITHs on other forums. I've also sent out my best and gotten a knife I couldn't afford, and put my best to shame. It's not just about getting a knife (honestly, how many of us need another knife?!?) it's about getting feedback and tips from people who know better.

Just my proverbial two cents...

 

[Battle Creek Knives]

I think the original rules should stay intact, they seem solid, and aren't much to ask from a participant..

I was leaning to join, until I'd seen there was a "newbie" kith..

And had I been allowed to join, honestly I think it would be unfair to the others, especially the one who got my knife

I've been around carpentry and construction my whole life and I'm good with my hands, does that make me a great knifemaker?? NO, definitely not, although my screen name may appear I'm 100% legit and slinging blades out there like crazy I have yet to complete even ONE knife I've ground !!!! yeah I've ground a bunch just no time to sit down and complete one...

I don't care who calls who a knifemaker/tradesman/craftsman etc, the proof is in the pudding...

and if I was a seasoned maker I think my baby feelers may be a little tattered around Christmas time if I got a knife that was substandard to what I put out.. apples to apples?, hardly but at least give me a knife from a maker that's reading from the same sheet of music...

with that said, when I do start putting out knives no one will be unsatisfied or it won't leave my hands..

now off to join the "newbie" kith.....

 

[fast14riot]

......

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I don't participate in KITH's simply because my schedule won't allow for a guaranteed finish. Breaks my heart, as the intentions are truly good-hearted. Nonetheless, if I were in a KITH and received a knife from a beginner that gave it his or her all, I would cherish that knife JUST as much as I would had it been a classic piece from a master. That's the best part of the concept - everyone gets something, and that should be indicative of the best of their ability. If you view it as a way to get a choice knife from a pro, that feels contrary to the spirit of the KITH, to me. In fact, you ought to just be buying one from the maker, if that's how it is!

Stacy, you're in a tough spot, my friend. Your devotion and commitment to this forum and the quantity of your participation places you firmly in the crosshairs on all of these fronts. I suspect that whether or not you desire the diadem of leadership it will be associated with you merely due to your constant presence and voice.

I agree with your position on attempting to maintain a degree of order to keep everyone happy, however my guess is that this is tantamount to playing catcher in the rye - and we all know how it ended for Holden!!!! Maybe overzealous folks with good intentions need to be burned good by the stove in order to save them from the serious fire. My guess is that the ones that truly have the skill to organize will flesh out the crowd over time, rather than letting the dolts endure.

 

[unky_gumbi]

Nonetheless, if I were in a KITH and received a knife from a beginner that gave it his or her all, I would cherish that knife JUST as much as I would had it been a classic piece from a master.

That is exactly how I looked at it, but I also understand where Stacy is coming from.

A thought that came to me the other day, but I didn't want to bring it up till after these two KITHs are over is to to a mid summer KITH that is open to all regular posters in this sub-forum that have a membership. Only thing is the recipient would have to give a form review of the knife they got and cover things like fit and finish, overall workmanship, usability, and at least 3 things they really like about the knife. This way you get the spirit of the KITH, yet makers get some structured feedback on their work. This is just me thinking and I don't have much more than an idea at this point.