knife auction plagiarism

Joined
Apr 7, 2001
Messages
346
A friend of mine just contacted me and asked if there was
anything he could do about a picture of his on auction that was
stolen by another to sell their similar products.

I was wondering if anyone here could offer and insight or
advice? Thanks.
 
Hey Fossill....

The only thing you could probably do is ask the person to remove it..Yell him it has a coryright,then complain to the webhost...

In the future tell him to put a watermark in a couple of places that can't be easily removed...

There are several programs that will allow you to place a watermark on an image...It's quite simple...

Hope that helped...

ttyle

Eric...
 
This happened to me once before on Ebay. Not only did the guy steal my picture, but he used my exact same ad, word for word.

I complained to Ebay and to the seller. He pretty much said "tuff sh!t", but after I complained to ebay a few times, and left negative feedback on his profile, he stopped!
 
Thanks for the advise!
Also, are they really copyrighted from the moment you post
them? Also, can you recommend any watermark programs?
My friend is really mad and I have purchase many quality products
from him in the past and want to help him as best I can.

I cannot believe some people cannot come up with their own
material and have stolen his pics and his exact item description!

Thanks!
 
I have had a few steal my photos. I think its a cheesy thing to do to someone. Its annoying to see. You can email them, but they don't respond. I'd suggest marking the photos with his name on them. A watermark type even so It can't be altered.
 
I am no Lawyer, but IMO ONLY, I think there is a copyright process that must be followed and at best a very clear disclaimer that the photo is personal property of XXXXXX and CANNOT be used without the express written permission of the photo's OWNER. Having said that, I rarely see it being written on an auction. But again it's a slimely POS type of activity, JUST like using ONE'S NAME to endorse a knife on an auction that really should be banned, it is CON ARTIST crap!!!!!!wolf
 
There's theory and there's practice. The theory sounds good. The law says that you get a copyright in any artistic material you create, including pictures or text (more than a couple of descriptive words). Anyone who copies without your permission is liable, and the law says that the penalty may be "up to" $100,000, even if you have not suffered any loss. You do NOT need to put a copyright notice on it, although it can help if you ever try to sue someone. Just put "Copyright 2001 Joe Smith", or use a copyright symbol, (c) or a c in a circle.

To show that your copyright has been infringed, you need to show that the person copied, which is typically done by showing that the person had access to your "work" and that theirs is "substantially similar" to yours. (This is where watermarks are helpful, since as I understand it they cannot be removed.) This part is often not too hard. It's usually pretty clear if photos are identical.

But (you knew this was too good to be true didn't you?) the other part is that you have to sue to collect or force them to stop, which can be very expensive. You may have to sue where the other person is, instead of your home state. There are a number of defenses, and even if you win you may only get a few dollars, the amount often depends upon what was copied and what was done with it, i.e. how much the other person made.

In the case of a knife picture for sale or auction, I suspect you would not get much since 1) knives don't sell for that much (the law thinks even a couple of thousand is not much), and 2) anyone can take their own picture of the same model knife. Still, I understand your being annoyed and I would agree that the best things to do are to add posts slamming the person for doing it and complain to e-bay or whoever, or try writing to the person doing it and threaten legal action and see if that stops them.

Hope this helps.
 
Well, that is the answer!!! But let me play Devil's advocate. How about taking a photo OF a photo belonging to someone else posted on a PUBLIC forum? No Copyright warnings, just a photo for an auction? Slimey? YUP, but if the knife is an identical to the photo how does one say that the photo OF the photo has been stolen when they have a knife that fits the photo to a tee???????????:confused: :confused: :eek: :p
 
Odulus -- you forgot the defense of fair use. I am afraid most photos on auction sites would fall under this doctrine of CR law.

A pic of a knife is not creative -- it is not an interpretation it is a fact. First... you can't copyright facts. They are in the public domain.

Now... if you can make the picture distinctive, using even slight creativity than you may have a case (already discussed).

However, that is where fair use can be used as a defense. You are selling the knife not the picture. The copier is not selling the pic, he is using the pic to sell a knife. It is presumably a one time use of the pic. All of these factors go to fair use. Meaning there is implied consent by the photographer that the photo can be used by another for this purpose.

JT
 
JT,

I respectfully disagree. Commercial use can almost never be fair use, which is generally reserved for news reports, commentary or analysis.

You are correct that you cannot copyright a fact, but by definition any picture is not a fact itself, it is someone's "interpretation" as captured on film or other medium. There is always some creativity in deciding how to take the picture, even if very little, such as the angle of presentation, lighting, background, etc. Would you argue that any nature picture is a fact? Can we all copy Ansel Adams' pictures to sell our own products? No way.

It also makes no difference to infringement that the copier is selling a knife, not the picture. You cannot copy someone else's work to sell your own product, and I know of no rule of implied consent. For example, there are a number of cases of songs being used in commercials for beer, cars, etc. without permission, and it is always infringement.

The problem is that, as I mentioned, the other person can take his own picture of the same model knife (or even the very same knife, if he could get it), as some people have tried to imitate Ansel Adams by taking pictures in the same places. And it does make a difference as to damages (not liability) that the copier is not selling the picture but the knife, and thus I believe that the courts would find that the value of the stolen picture, and thus the damage, is quite small.

To Wolfmann's point, taking a picture of a copyrighted work without permission is still infringemnt because it is a form of reproduction. However, he is correct in that the more generic and less artistic the picture, the harder it is to prove copying.

In short, I still think fossilhunter has a valid gripe, but it's tough to do anything cost effective about it.
 
That's true, I am sure nothing substantial can be done about it now after the fact. Perhaps I could ask what can be done before the picture is duplicated? Is there such a program that can "scramble" a photo so that it is useless if copied, or prevent the copy altogether?

I suppose anyone's picture is able to be copied by a simple click of the mouse. I know I have saved pictures to my desktop for use as wallpaper or simple admiration.

However, I would never allow myself to steal someone else's "art" to sell my own product. It just would not feel right, or feel good. I think it is a damn shame to see someone copy a photo and use it to their own good - and at the same time as another.

I thank you all for the replies! I have learned things I did not know.

Ciao
 
Odulus... I agree with you for the most part. I was just presenting defenses that could/would be raised. Although fair use may not be a strong defense there may be an argument made by a defendant in this case.

Fair use is reserved for the purposes you mentioned, but it can sometimes be used in a commercial context (some courts have said advertising provides info to the public. It can Depend on the context and the amount taken from the originator and damage to copyright holder. However, here it may be a weak argument.

Also... excuse my confusing of issues. When I was talking about implied consent I was referring to another defense. The originator may have-by putting the pic on an auction site on the web-voluntarily put the pic out into the public domain therefore waiving Copyright. This may be a better argument depending on the provisions of the contract one gets into with the website to put something up for auction.

Now... like you said if he affixed something to it or a disclaimer than that may be a different story. This is an interesting case -- but like you said taking it litigating it would not be practical as damages would be minimal.

JT
 
That is the problem in our GREAT land. The Legal-eze of everything. Nothing can be black or white and many things can go unpunished or get punished at a level of insignifigance. The stealing of a photo on an auction, is it traumatic? No, but is it UNETHICAL, inappropriate, WRONG? F-ing yes to the Nth degree, it is downright SLIME. But until such time as all bad acts carry with it some form of meaningful penalty, life as a slimebag can continue. Do I mean Big Brother stepping in with new or added LAW???? NAH, just remember the old days as kids when we screwed up and the cop on the beat got the free kick in the Ass, and then brought us home for dad or Mom's turn. Man, you did not engage in THAT conduct again if you had ANY smarts.......wolf
 
Well said Wolf,

I don't think there is any need to download pictures to advertise as your own. I can see, and would have no objections to someone using a pic here on the forums trying to show what something looked like. As part of informational purposes its not a problem. As far as getting Johnny kochring involved? Nah, I think people should just do the right thing.

I have seen on other websites other dealers pics. Take a look at http://www.dao.com.cn/ Look in the Microtech section & open the Vector pic. Notice anything? I mean besides I have to much time on my hands:D
 
We post several dozen auctions at ebay weekly, and often find someone cribbing our copy, pictures or other proprietary material. You have several choices:

1) You can register with ebay's VERO program. Once youve registered, you can have any auction closed which is using your property, including pictures, without your permission, simply by filing a simple form email with ebay.

2) You can look at the source code of the auction to determine the host of the offending picture. Send a complaint to abuse@the host. Almost all hosting services will immediately remove a picture under these circumstances, immediately. Cite the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) in your note.

With respect to all the other posters here, 'fair use,' virtually never covers images, unless for clear use in parody or news. Even the news exemption generally requires licensing for images which have a clear copyright owner. I have made my living in the entertainment industry for several decades, and we never, EVER use an image, no matter what the circumstances, without licensing it or making sure that it falls into the public domain.
 
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