Knife bashing

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Feb 1, 2003
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I recently saw a picture of a 4”, fixed blade utility knife being beaten with a wooden club to drive it into the cut. I never thought about doing this. Although I expect it would be murder on the pivot of a folder, could it be used to press a very light fixed blade, like the Spyderco Moran, into use as a chopper? Or, would it be abusive?

Darrel
 
Sure thing. Using a baton on a knife is much less damaging to the blade than actual chopping. You can baton a relatively thin blade into wood, with little to no damage, as long as you don't twist the blade.
 
It won't hurt a fixed blade at all, and probably wouldn't hurt a good folder either as long as you aren't hitting the joint repeatedly.

I can't really think of another good way of using a knife to split wood, and I have done it countless times, with no ill effect to the knives.

Greg
 
I have done it with folders, they can be totally destroyed very easily with such use. Even the "super locks" don't tend to take this use, I tried to use an Arc-Lock from SOG to split a small piece of knotty wood and the lock went to pieces.

Considering how spine whacks are constantly labeled abusive to folders, and this very mild compare to baton work. You are going to be hard pressed to find anyone making a folder which will put this in the intended scope of work.

On a fixed blade, you are not going to bend or damage a knife doing this assuming the blade is hardened steel. The only concern would be the edge geometry, specifically the ability to handle knots.

I have done it with cheap kitchen knives and they are fine if you work around the knots, but the edges will fold if you have to chisel through them due to a combination of of soft steel and thin edges.

-Cliff
 
As a person that has often used a tool in a manner for which it was not intended I really am stepping over a bit saying this but there will always be an idiot that will use any tool in a totally reckless and dangerous manner.
The problem is that stupidity spreads. It's not good to encourage other idiots.
That just leaves one option. Sue the manufacturer because the moron lost a finger. Sad but true
 
You can use a baton with a Cold Steel Voyager. It's a lock back zytel handled folder. More than once in the garden, I've used a brick to pound my Tanto Point Voyager through some wood to make stakes. It mars the spine a little, but a little sandpaper or file action takes out the knicks.
 
TomW.. I'm with you. I can't for the life of me understand why people would be abusing and batoning their fixed blade to split wood unless they really really had no choice to use their hatchet or axe.

The right tool for the right job I always say.
 
Originally posted by rt014
TomW.. I'm with you. I can't for the life of me understand why people would be abusing and batoning their fixed blade to split wood unless they really really had no choice to use their hatchet or axe.

The right tool for the right job I always say.
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You may be the only two people on this forum who consider this abuse. I pack light when I hike and the only knives I carry are an SAK, multitool and 4" fixed blade with 1/8" stock. Batoning my belt knife is how I split kindling and the like. I've even done this, several times, with a Mora clipper with 2mm thick blade. Very easy and safe, and not stressful at all on the blade.

Glen
 
The only fixed blade I have damged with baton work were made out of mild steel, and it took knotty wood to be a problem, so if you have similar steel in your blades then yes, it is probably abusive and don't do it. This of course isn't a high standard as even United Cutlery uses better steels.

There are however a few fixed blades I own that I have not done it with, these are knives highly optomized for edge retention, and have very hard steels 62+ HRC, with very thin edges, 0.005"-0.010" thick. Knives like that you might be able to break on knotty wood, they will handle clear woods fine.

It is however abusive to most folders, I have tried it on a few to see and they all handle it badly with the exception of the Arlee Niemi Megaladon. Of course most makers and manufacturers will clearly state this (and even milder use such as flipping and spine whacks) is abusive.

-Cliff
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp

It is however abusive to most folders, I have tried it on a few to see and they all handle it badly with the exception of the Arlee Niemi Megaladon. Of course most makers and manufacturers will clearly state this (and even milder use such as flipping and spine whacks) is abusive.
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Cliff,

I have never tried to split wood with one of my folders, but I am trying to work out in my head where the abuse would come from. While I wouldn't do it unless I had no other good choice, what sort of damage could I expect by pounding my Sebenza through some 3" (something smaller than the width of the blade) thick wood for kindling? If I am just hitting the blade, and not the pivot or frame, what am I likely to damage?

What have you seen in your experience?

Greg
 
The lock is usually destroyed in various ways. It can either totally come part if it is a complicated set up like the Arc-Lock from SOG, or the impacts can flatten various contacting regions and quickly induce a lot of blade play.

I have not tried it with a Sebenza, but Reeve considers both spine whacking and flicking both abusive and these are both far less stressful than using a baton on the blade.

In the above I am just talking about hitting the blade, pounding right down on the lock may be more destructive still, or less depending on the nature of the lock. It would be very effective in trying to split the wood.

If I had to do it with a folder, I would act so as to minimize the damage. Look at the wood carefully and make sure you are not going to end up chiseling through any hard knots. if the wood is very knotty it may have to be split in sections. Split off the sides and reduce the thickness. Usually unless the weather has been very damp, this is actually enough to be productive as this should reveal dry wood.

Go slow and check the blade periodically to make sure nothing is getting impacted. On a frame lock it would seem likely that impaction might start on the meeting surface between the lack bar and the blade.

Once you get the blade into the wood, drive a wedge in on top of it (this can be a piece of wood), this will further act to split the wood, and often means you can stop beating on the knife. Shape the wedge before hand out of the hardest piece of wood you have on hand. In an extended situation, with limited knives, you might want to make a decent one and fireharden it.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Your last post is a classic example of why I come here.

Yes, don't abuse your tools.

But... "If you have to... here's how to do it the smart way"

I learned something valuable today. Hopefully I'll never be in a situation where that knowledge is critical, but if I am, you've just saved me valuable minutes and more importantly, what might be my only tool.

Thanks for that.

Questions:

Before the blade is embedded in the wood, if you hit the spine centrally over the material to start the cut, surely the handle/pivot is not part of the equation (except maybe their inertia- which could be neutralised by unlocking the blade)?

if you split wood with a folder, doesn't choking up and supporting the handle as close to the pivot as possible (i.e. over it) minimse the leverage on (and therefore the damage to) the lock?
 
Little claw :

Before the blade is embedded in the wood, if you hit the spine centrally over the material to start the cut, surely the handle/pivot is not part of the equation (except maybe their inertia- which could be neutralised by unlocking the blade)?
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Yes, there is little torque here, however the shock could still be an issue, depending on the nature of the lock. With a simple mechanism like the Sebenza this isn't a factor, and what you would mainly be concerned about would be avoiding any lateral impacts which would twist the blade and thus effect the handle pins and the blade washers and such, so just go slow and don't do caveman smashes with the baton.


if you split wood with a folder, doesn't choking up and supporting the handle as close to the pivot as possible (i.e. over it) minimse the leverage on (and therefore the damage to) the lock?
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Yes, ideally you want it to be basically a chisel cut right through the wood. This is why just as you mentioned you start off on the blade centered. However as you progress you end up having to beat on the tip, this will then cause the blade to rotate down unless you oppose it by pressing down on the handle. The knife can then start to experience a bend in the handle depending on if you have the strength to press down right next to the lock or not. The torque will be similar regardless of where you press, but it is easier on the lock the closer you get to the handle (and the harder on you).

On thick wood the impacts might have to be high enough so that vibration might be very uncomfortable. If this becomes a factor you might want to start looking for another piece of wood. However if all there is on hand is junk knotty dead woods, then at least take the time to wrap the grip. As well get in a position where you can lean into the handle with a locked shoulder. This will allow you to use your body weight to keep the blade stable and not have to just press down as
this is a *very* weak plane of motion.

In general the tighter you can grip the wood the easier it is on the knife.

Solid questions raised.

Once you get a fire going, bring in your firewood so it can dry out. Once it is dry protect it in case it rains. Once a fire gets going, usually it can handle wet wood (though poorly), and unless wood is very scarce and you need to maximize its use, you can just burn the wet wood, and even large pieces by letting the fire dry them out and section them.

-Cliff
 
Those folks who pound their blades are the same ones who use their knives are pry-bars. I GUESS since it's THEIR knife they can abuse it all they want to, up to, and including destroying it.:rolleyes:.
 
I respectfully disagree. I NEVER use any of my knives as prybars. A knife makes for a pretty lousy prybar, if you grind it thin enough to actually cut. But….. I frequently baton my fixed blades. It does little to no harm to any good quality fixed blade, as long as your baton isn’t harder than the blade, and as long as you have enough control not to turn or twist the blade during the baton stroke. Much less harm than actually trying to chop with the knife, as there is no real impact with the wood.
 
You don't even need a good fixed blade, Jim Aston has done it on numerous occasions with knives that are dirt cheap, and which are commonly used as kitchen knives. It takes a highly specialized knife to not be able to do this without damage.

As for it being less stressful than chopping, well that depends on the knife and the user. If a knife is suited to chopping (the necessary weight and balance) and the user skilled, the strain is low. Trying to baton that knife is going to be harder on the edge assuming you go for similar depth of cut.

However if a knife makes a lousy chopper and you really have to flail away with it, with a partial grip which makes controlling the cut very difficult, then the knife would be much better off being batoned.

As for prying, this is more to do with the spine thickness and steel qualities than the edge geometry, unless you are prying with the edge of course. In general for example you can do a lot of prying with 1/4" bowies with spring spines, and assuming that the edges are ground efficiently - there are probably not going to be a lot of complaints about cutting ability.

The only knives you don't want to pry with are those with the ultra brittle steels like D2 which don't tend to flex much before they snap (except on really thin blades and those can be bent so easily prying isn't useful). Those steels however do tend to make the best cutting blades.

-Cliff
 
If you read Ed Fowlers pieces in Blade Mag you will notice that he seems to have a defective thought process, his opinion is that a knife is a multi function tool that should take all the abuse and dumb things you can think of to misuse a knife, he talks of using a knife to try and pick a lock on a criminals door and breaking the tip off in the process and being disapointed that it broke when he needed it. Well duh use the right tool for the job and you won't have problems.Stupid is as stupid does. and yes I was a mechanic instructor and hammered it into my students thick skulls use the right tool for the job and you might keep your stripes and fingers too.
 
Originally posted by TomW
As a person that has often used a tool in a manner for which it was not intended I really am stepping over a bit saying this but there will always be an idiot that will use any tool in a totally reckless and dangerous manner.
The problem is that stupidity spreads. It's not good to encourage other idiots.
That just leaves one option. Sue the manufacturer because the moron lost a finger. Sad but true
Click to expand...
Just because I like this post and think it needs repeteing.
 
Ed Fowler is a staunch advocate of using the right knife for the job, but he also believes in making a knife that won't break when you may need to use it for something it was never intended to do.
 
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