Knife Choil Design

TheJeepster said:
On this forum we are always talking abut recommendations and this vs. that blade and help me find this and that but we never talk about knife designs or parts of the knife.

I want to learn about the Choil. Most of us know it is for chocking up on the knife for finer wood working but when did it start getting put on knives. I know none of the knives I see in old cowboy and western pictures have them and none of the knives we bought as kids at places like Sears, Western Auto, OTASCO, Local Hardware Store had them. When did they start getting popular. I always believe the Ricasso was meant for that purpose but when did the Choil become so popular and who did it first.
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The term "choil" is very location specific, it is simply the end of the blade-grind in line with the plunge at the ricasso, i.e. the transition point from the sharpened edge. It often features a "spanish" notch for ease of sharpening, and that notch can be very small or very large, large enough for a finger.

Popular folding knives which LACK a choil notch include most of Spyderco's offerings like the PM2 which feature an integral guard as part of the ricasso but no "choil" notch, the edge is sharpened right to the ricasso.
There is commonly a finger-groove in the ricasso below this guard, but a "groove" is not a "choil".

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Every traditional folding knife seems to feature a choil-notch, though not the Buck110 or the Opinel, and many bowie-knife designs feature one as well.

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So what do you mean when you use the term "choil"? A "groove" for your finger?
 
TheJeepster said:
Awesome response and you are correct in showing us pocket knives as most of my study of this matter says that traditionally a Choil is usually on a folding knife and help me justify my question. In this forum and most of the knife world the Choil is now referred to as the half milled circle in front of the handle to put your finger in to choke up on the knife.

When did this become popular? Did knife makers just start milling the Choil larger and start telling people to use it to choke up on or did the end buyer started doing this after making the purchase?

What is the history on the modern Choil.

This is a good question for somebody like AG Russell or Mike Stewart but lets see if we can figure it out.
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Hmm...

Well, some early Buck knives feature an enlarged ricasso ahead of the guard as you already mentioned, but the first "finger-choil" knives I came across were Mad Dog Knives from Kevin McClung, circa 1980s...

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Obviously not a clean groove, but he had the choke-up notion as well as the military-fantasy to inspire other producers...

Credit may go to Gerber who featured it prominently is some early models:

http://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/medium/Knives_2.jpg

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not sure why that pic isn't showing up...

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Then there are Randall Knives, with "grooved" choils on designs released and popularized during WW2 (i.e. 1940s)...

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To my understanding, a choil is just a cutout between the blade and handle to aid in grip (finger choil)or sharpening (sharpening choil), or in some cases, both.
 
Hate the choil (either). First thing I look at in a knife. Lots of Euro knives don't have it. Look there. They do it right. For example, chinese Kershaw knives don't usually have the choil, but US ones do. Doh!
 
No choil for me. Especially on sub 6" blades. Reshaped my ESEE 4 just to do away with the choil, and I like it much better now. In all the time I've used a knife, I've never found a choil to be useful. If I've needed to chock up for detailed work gripping towards the front always seemed more secure and more comfortable than a choil. YMMV.
 
I couldn't wait to get the TAD Dauntless. What a great knife! Here it is (at the top) with a Grayman DUA.
Unfortunately, the TAD's choil is large, in order to fit the index finger. I unwrapped the knife and took it to the garage to test its edge on a cardboard box. I "stabbed" the box and then attempted to drag the blade downward in a cutting motion. I was surprised that the blade was completely stuck. I had plunged the blade in all the way to the grip. The choil is NOT sharp, so that it could not easily be withdrawn from the box.
I sold that knife rather quickly after that mishap.
 
Per Oxford Dictionary:

"choil
Syllabification: choil
Pronunciation: /CHoil /
NOUN

The end of a knife’s cutting edge that is nearer to the handle."

Believed to originate around the late 19th century.


Looking at the origin of "Ricasso", you may find reference to a "ricasso grip" (technique), which involves choking up into the ricasso ("unsharpened section of blade above the guard") to increase torque. This technique may have inspired compound guards used a looooong time ago, suggesting that...

It ain't new.
 
RBid said:
It ain't new...
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No, which is what i discussed in my first post, but the OP wants to know when it proliferated among modern knives as we see today, i.e. who is responsible for that large radius'd "finger choil" that led to confusion of the term such that now I hear/read folk call ANY groove a "choil" as if the terms were interchangeable. They are not, but the trend away from a simply large squared-off ricasso to a 50/50 blade/ricasso radius'd notch must have had a beginning. From my cursory bit of googling, I lay the blame on Randall inspiring Gerber whose history and wide distribution-power allowed them to bring the design into the market full-force before it was picked up by other companies and landed in a feedback loop...

Anybody have images of very old "finger choil" knives where it isn't a squared-off ricasso?
 
TheJeepster said:
I have noticed Bushcraft knives just eliminate the Ricasso and have a handle with instant blade.
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That's my issue with it. You can bring the edge back to the handle and have just as much control. No need to lose so much potential edge. I don't mind a small finger choil, like on a Spyderco Military, as it adds an element of safety to a folder in the case of accidental closure.
 
blade man said:
That's my issue with it. You can bring the edge back to the handle and have just as much control. No need to lose so much potential edge. I don't mind a small finger choil, like on a Spyderco Military, as it adds an element of safety to a folder in the case of accidental closure.
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I found this out after a while. While I love my ESEE 3mil to death, I really don't need or use the choil all that often. I'd rather just have the extra cutting surface and deal with a little less control. If I really needed the extra control/fine detail work, I'd might as well pack a backbreaking 2 ounces for a Izula or like knife.
 
blade man said:
That's my issue with it. You can bring the edge back to the handle and have just as much control. No need to lose so much potential edge. I don't mind a small finger choil, like on a Spyderco Military, as it adds an element of safety to a folder in the case of accidental closure.
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Again, the Spyderco does NOT have a "finger choil" at all, it's misuse of the term. It has an enlarged ricasso with an integral forward guard above which the actual choil is un-notched - no groove.

Regarding "choiless" knives (like the Spyderco, as it happens), most feature a blunt area above the plunge-line due to the challenge of grinding the edge all the way to the ricasso without marring it or the handle-guard. A LOT of designs feature a choil notch to allow complete sharpening of the edge (e.g. GSO-4.1), while many puukko knives are actually ground/sharpened prior to constructing the handle onto the stick-tang, so the edge comes all the way down to the ferrule.
 
chiral.grolim said:
Again, the Spyderco does NOT have a "finger choil" at all, it's misuse of the term. It has an enlarged ricasso with an integral forward guard above which the actual choil is un-notched - no groove.

Regarding "choiless" knives (like the Spyderco, as it happens), most feature a blunt area above the plunge-line due to the challenge of grinding the edge all the way to the ricasso without marring it or the handle-guard. A LOT of designs feature a choil notch to allow complete sharpening of the edge (e.g. GSO-4.1), while many puukko knives are actually ground/sharpened prior to constructing the handle onto the stick-tang, so the edge comes all the way down to the ferrule.
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True, but I used it for brevity. What would you recommend? Calling it "an enlarged ricasso with an integral forward guard" sucks. The term's usage has certainly morphed, but what would you suggest?
 
blade man said:
True, but I used it for brevity. What would you recommend? Calling it "an enlarged ricasso with an integral forward guard" sucks. The term's usage has certainly morphed, but what would you suggest?
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I'm fine with "forward groove" when it isn't actually at the choil. Many knives feature handle "finger grooves" or a single "index groove" below the guard. The word "groove" doesn't sound as sophisticated as "choil" but is at least somewhat applicable since it isn't location specific. *shrug*
 
I've heard people refer to "finger choils" and "sharpening choils".

Works for me. :) Lets everyone know what feature they're talking about.
 
To me, Randall's are the epitome of a choil on a fixed blade. It is one of the reasons I like the Blackjack Classic line. Do I use it often? No. Does it bother me that I might gain as much as a half inch of additional sharpened edge? No. Randall wasn't the first to use this design certainly, but they did help to define what most people think of a choil on a fixed blade.
 
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