Knife Company Expectations of Their Customers

[stabman]

We often hear about how this company ships dullish knives, or that one ships them so sharp they split atoms; I think this has to do with what they perceive as what the customer is looking for.
Spyderco's ship out sharp. They expect that their customers want to cut things (fair enough).
Striders ship out...well...sort of sharpish. They arrive with a rather obtuse edge angle. Some people think this is a flaw, but I've come to the conclusion that it's based on what many of their customers want. Bear with me here for a moment.
Striders are billed as "Hardcore tools for Hardcore individuals" or some such slogan; people expect their knives to be tough. And, as we've seen by certain tests, people will try to do things they think constitute "hard use" which a "hardcore tool" should handle. Some of these things done would chip a more acute edge angle, no matter the heat treat.
I've also seen this with my brother's Rodent Waki. It came sharpish (it would cut), but had a rather obtuse edge angle. Once again, I believe this is due to the fact that people will run out and bash a bunch of things because it's billed as being capable of it (indeed, he ran out and bashed a bunch of wood and everything else it was possible to cut). If someone bought their uber tough sword and had the edge chip all to hell after chopping through a few trees and hitting some rocks, they'd be unlikely to recommend that others buy it.
Just as people who bought a Spyderco expecting it to be shaving sharp would not recommend one to a friend if it arrived with a 70 degree inclusive edge angle.
Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Reeek]

I think you may be right to a point. I agree with hard use knives shipped with a low angle edge and only "working edge" sharp is probably fair and may be by design by some MFGs. However, I'm not sure I'd be as fair to some other MFG's you didn't mention with regard to their finished product.

I also feel some MFG's may be cautious because of our litigous society. Your hot coffee burned me and your sharp knife cut me. Ugh!

 

[cramsey3006]

Some knife companies ship dull knives for the same reason that gun companies sell rifle with crappy, heavy triggers. Liability. Let the user fine tune it their needs and then the company has no liability if something goes wrong.

 

[axtalan0]

Once again, I believe this is due to the fact that people will run out and bash a bunch of things because it's billed as being capable of it (indeed, he ran out and bashed a bunch of wood and everything else it was possible to cut).

I think you have a point, which may coincide with my own observation. What you are describing is basically using knives as toys. The companies you mention market their knives as super-tough cut-anything, implements. The mentality among many customers then becomes: oooooh, let's see if it will stand up to this or that exaggerated task. Some take it well beyond the point of abuse, even if the knife gets damaged in the end, just for "fun." The most extreme example are the completely unnecessary "knife-destruction tests" on YouTube. Yeah guys, I'm sure there is some practical application for trying to slice through a cinder block.

Or just look at the designs of Dork Ops or TOPS knives. I feel like I am looking at a toy catalog. Yes, I know TOPS makes some decent knives, but the majority of their 'tacticool' designs are grossly impractical for any real-world application. That is what I mean by toys.

Nothing wrong with playing with knives like that, but I will take a good slicer over a tactical brute for lumberjacks any day of the week!

 

[KennyB]

I think a lot of it is just done for the sake of production. Spydercos may ship their blades extremely sharp, but from what I've seen detailed they also have the most thorough QC for production blades.

When you consider how many blades that need to be ground in a day, having obtuse, "somewhat" sharp angles is an obvious ploy to increase production. Even with a grinder, grinding in a more acute angle might not take much more time, but it will remove more metal, and where out the wheel itself faster. So in a lot of instances, I think companies will make a decision to go with more obtuse angle grinds to avoid higher production costs.

I think that this is evident in the factory finish of most blades as well. Even my Benchmade came with some rather coarse looking grind marks. My Case Trapper looked like I could use it for a nail file. About the only knife I've ever have come with a nicely polished edge bevel was my Kershaw "Needs Work", and even that came with some kind of weird secondary edge bevel on one side of it that I've been informed is there so they can sharpen it up quicker.

In the past I've seen people suggest that Benchmade uses 40 degree inclusive bevel versus the more common 50 so that they can appeal to "knife enthusiasts" and at the same time not produce a knife that will quickly lose its edge on most "utility" tasks that your run-of-the-mill knife consumer would use them for. On the one hand they try to cater to the enthusiast crowd that is willing to pay a high price tag for their knives, while on the other trying to create an all-around tool that won't require the same amount of knowledge and maintenance out of the run-of-the-mill users who will expect the edge retention of very obtuse edge angles that you see on lower cost knives.

When I think about it though, there's another interesting idea to contend with. How many people even sharpen their knives? I mean, if you're a knife company and you want to sell knives, would it be in your best interest to release a knife that is going to keep its edge for a super long time, or one that is going to dull out and need to be "replaced" by purchasing a new knife or by sharpening. I mean, does edge retention matter to most customers, and do they return to that knife because of it?

 

[stabman]

I think you have a point, which may coincide with my own observation. What you are describing is basically using knives as toys.

Agreed, but most of us buy some of our knives as toys.
Even if you go chopping wood in the forest it's REALLY a toy in most cases. Unless you live in the woods, you're going there to play. Toys for bigger boys.
To be serious, I don't NEED a Clax in my daily life, but damn it's fun to go play with it out in the woods!

 

[SkinnyJoe]

Some knife companies ship dull knives for the same reason that gun companies sell rifle with crappy, heavy triggers. Liability. Let the user fine tune it their needs and then the company has no liability if something goes wrong.

...by that logic those knives should not have any edge whatsoever.

 

[unit]

SUPER sharp edges do not last through the activities that many consider "hard use". If the knife should be able to pry, dig, baton, cut, stab, and chop, it should be able to do all of them in any order.

When I see people re-grinding their Hard Use knives to be slicers...it kind of reminds me of this. Nothing wrong with it I suppose, but probably not what the maker intended.

You say "sharp-ish"...a guy that does these hard uses with his knife probably says "sharp enough"

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I have heard that some knife companies in the early 20th century would send their knives out with a serviceable edge, and the customer would sharpen his knife as he saw fit. Kinda tough these days with S30V and ZDP189.

 

[Joshua J.]

Absolutely. It is no secret that manufacturers put thick edges on knives because they know that the knife is as likely to scrape head gaskets as it is to slice paper.

 

[stabman]

SUPER sharp edges do not last through the activities that many consider "hard use". If the knife should be able to pry, dig, baton, cut, stab, and chop, it should be able to do all of them in any order.

When I see people re-grinding their Hard Use knives to be slicers...it kind of reminds me of this. Nothing wrong with it I suppose, but probably not what the maker intended.

You say "sharp-ish"...a guy that does these hard uses with his knife probably says "sharp enough"

This isn't another "Hard Use" thread, either for promoting or denigrating it.
If it turns into that I'll close this thread right away; I'm bored as hell with those threads.

 

[stabman]

I have heard that some knife companies in the early 20th century would send their knives out with a serviceable edge, and the customer would sharpen his knife as he saw fit. Kinda tough these days with S30V and ZDP189.

I've found good old silicon carbide sandpaper to do the trick quite nicely with S30V and any other steel I've had.

 

[kitkat52]

A knife maker is in a mean market with thousands of expectations from unreasonable buyers.There are many people that no one can made happy.

 

[J.Davey]

ANOTHER POINT. It often annoys me when companies market their larger knives and make comments about their toughness, etc., and especially their ability to 'chop' (which I see OFTEN with bowies, kukri styles, etc.). Yet, most companies also consider 'chopping' abuse and won't cover them under warranty. Drives me nuts.

 

[The Government]

The more I think about this topic, the more I learn about sharpening. Learning to sharpen knives is the best answer the problems we may have with factory grinds. They simply cant satisfy us all.

There are two main factors that I consider when looking at a factory blade for sharpness.

1) Edge Geometry

2) Quality of sharpening done

I have come to accept that most companies finish knives with thick edge bevels, hence my ever-growing collection of sharpening equipment. I have also accepted that most good companies send knives out with very toothy/ grainy finished edges -again, my reason for having lots of sharpening equipment.

There are even some companies that make their finished edges very obtuse and very poorly finished (without a useable edge). Some of my favorite companies do this.

After hanging out around here and trying different knives, my expectations for factory edges have completely dropped, and my sharpening skills have gotten better and better.

Thanks everyone :thumbup:

 

[cultivateitnow]

I think a lot of it is just done for the sake of production. Spydercos may ship their blades extremely sharp, but from what I've seen detailed they also have the most thorough QC for production blades.

When you consider how many blades that need to be ground in a day, having obtuse, "somewhat" sharp angles is an obvious ploy to increase production. Even with a grinder, grinding in a more acute angle might not take much more time, but it will remove more metal, and where out the wheel itself faster. So in a lot of instances, I think companies will make a decision to go with more obtuse angle grinds to avoid higher production costs.

I think that this is evident in the factory finish of most blades as well. Even my Benchmade came with some rather coarse looking grind marks. My Case Trapper looked like I could use it for a nail file. About the only knife I've ever have come with a nicely polished edge bevel was my Kershaw "Needs Work", and even that came with some kind of weird secondary edge bevel on one side of it that I've been informed is there so they can sharpen it up quicker.

In the past I've seen people suggest that Benchmade uses 40 degree inclusive bevel versus the more common 50 so that they can appeal to "knife enthusiasts" and at the same time not produce a knife that will quickly lose its edge on most "utility" tasks that your run-of-the-mill knife consumer would use them for. On the one hand they try to cater to the enthusiast crowd that is willing to pay a high price tag for their knives, while on the other trying to create an all-around tool that won't require the same amount of knowledge and maintenance out of the run-of-the-mill users who will expect the edge retention of very obtuse edge angles that you see on lower cost knives.

When I think about it though, there's another interesting idea to contend with. How many people even sharpen their knives? I mean, if you're a knife company and you want to sell knives, would it be in your best interest to release a knife that is going to keep its edge for a super long time, or one that is going to dull out and need to be "replaced" by purchasing a new knife or by sharpening. I mean, does edge retention matter to most customers, and do they return to that knife because of it?

Just remember Kenny, Nothing is free. One would have to ask themselves...

 

[A.L.]

Absolutely. It is no secret that manufacturers put thick edges on knives because they know that the knife is as likely to scrape head gaskets as it is to slice paper.

This is what I was thinking about lately and I completely agree.

 

[eisman]

I believe it's due more to manufacturing technique than anything. Liability is more likely to be an influence if something does not work the way it's meant to vs. the way it should. Modern manufacturing uses tolerances to determine the quality of the product, and sometimes those tolerances are too far outside what used to be considered acceptable.

For example: if you make a blade and have a tolerance of 0.001" for the overall height, and then index off the blade height when grinding the edge you have a possibility of having the edge as much as 0.002" off from another. That's a pretty big difference when your talking about cutting edge, and yet it's also pretty hard to measure repeatably when your company is making 1000 blades (or more) every day.

Add to this the wear on the cutters and grinding wheels, the abrasiveness of the media, and other issues that arise as normal in any cutting and grinding process, and you have a large margin for variation.

I recently picked up a production knife, first I've bought in a couple years, a Buck. Compared to the knives I usually purchase this one is horribly dull. But considering it cost about 100x less than the last knife I picked up I can sharpen it.

Of more concern (to me) is edge holding ability. I expect a knife to be able to cut through a 4"x4" and still be able to shave.

 

[unit]

This isn't another "Hard Use" thread, either for promoting or denigrating it.
If it turns into that I'll close this thread right away; I'm bored as hell with those threads.

Sorry, I did not see what I shared as promoting or denigrating anything. Apologies.

No disrespect intended, but what exactly do you expect us to share here?

 

[Joshua J.]

Unit, your post was definitely not the most controversial.

I found it an odd post to point out as well.