Knife Crash Course?

H

HomelessCrayon

Joined
Jun 26, 2014
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I'm just getting into knives but I seem to be missing out on something big because I see knives ranging from $50 to $500 with only minor visual differences. I assume that the difference is the quality of the blade/handle but I would love to know more about those different materials and their respective reasons for being either high or low quality. Also, i see certain knives with "patterns" on the blade for lack of a better term. What is the real name for this technique and how is it accomplished? Thanks for feeding my curiousity in advance! :)
 
A lot of it is little things you can't see unless you hold the knife in your hands and compare. Little things like every single surface being finished properly, tension of lock being carefully tuned until the knife is just right. The last 20% is all the work.

Another part is the steel. I know it sounds hard to believe, but the difference between a mid-range steel in a 50-100 dollar knife and a super steel like M390 is amazing. We're talking going from sharpening a hard use knife more than once a day to once a week at the extremes. These steels are very hard to produce and command a premium.

Third part is name. Let's face it, while Chris Reeve knives are amazing and nearly perfect in fit/finish/materials, and justly deserve their reputation, part of that price is his name. And a lot of the time, it's worth it, because a good knife designer will identify problems before your average "churn out a pile of knives" setup will. Hell, some of these guys are so good at making knives, they can identify that problem that you "can't put your finger on" before it becomes a problem and make that knife even more perfect in your hand.

But, it's hard unless you know steels and materials and tiny little details that make knives really perfect to identify these things. It's kinda like scotch. Your average guy can say "I like this" or "I don't like this", but they don't know enough to say why they like something or what makes that scotch really special.

There's great knives at every price point and tool around here long enough and you'll find them. Off hand, I suggest: Spyderco Paramilitary or Manix, Mora, Opinel #8, Kershaw Blur, and something survivally like a Scrap Yard Knife Co. 311.

The pattern is called a Hamon and is the pattern left by a differential heat treating a knife (so the edge is very hard and holds an edge, while the back of the blade is softer and absorbs blows). This is only really left on carbon steels like W2 and honestly isn't needed on many of the supersteels, but it looks beautiful and identifies that the craftsman that made the blade really knew what they were doing.
 
Welcome to the forum! LoT covered some good info. As for the steel with patterns, what came to mind for me is damascus steel. Google it and see if that's what you're referring to. It's basically different steels folded over one another several times and hammered into the blade shape, resulting in the pattern you see in the finished product.
 
Thank you for the answering all my questions so beautifully LoT! That was exactly the information I was looking for and Hamon was indeed what I was thinking of. I'll definitely be doing a scotch tasting so that I can start to figure out the little details that make a knife great rather than good.

Natural, that wasnt exactly what I was thinking of but that stuff is awesome looking! Im curious, does all that folding have any impact on the performance of the final product? It would seem natural that the beauty comes with a cost. Regardless, having one is at the top of my list now!
 
Hi, I'm not sure what advantages damascus steel has over conventional blade steels to be honest. I don't own any damascus knives and have never really researched them. With Hamon though, my understanding is that they use a harder steel in the middle to get the harder sharper cutting edge, and the softer steel on the outside to maintain flexibility of the blade.
 
"Hamon" is a temper line. The steel above has been treated differently than the steel below the line so it has a different appearance.

The advantage of damascus steel these days is decorative.

The incremental cost of the last possible 10% in quality vastly exceeds the cost of the first 50-75% of quality.
 
NaturalMystic said:
Hi, I'm not sure what advantages damascus steel has over conventional blade steels to be honest. I don't own any damascus knives and have never really researched them. With Hamon though, my understanding is that they use a harder steel in the middle to get the harder sharper cutting edge, and the softer steel on the outside to maintain flexibility of the blade.
Click to expand...
You are mistaken there, NM.
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...4eYgilf4gE6JhXPeJ8jScdw&bvm=bv.69837884,d.dGI
You are talking about a lamination line/boundary in a laminated blade. The Japanese term for the blade you describe is san mai.
A hamon comes from the heat treat process. Done a certain way in certain steals, a line between hard & soft steel is produced.
 
From what I understand you can have monosteels with superb qualities these days.
The damascus is more for the looks.
hope this helps
red mag
 
Thanks for correcting me. I saw a documentary a few years ago on katana/samurai sword making masters and as though I recall them mentioning what I said above.

I guess I just mixed up the terminologies.

Cheers.

mtangent said:
You are mistaken there, NM.
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...4eYgilf4gE6JhXPeJ8jScdw&bvm=bv.69837884,d.dGI
You are talking about a lamination line/boundary in a laminated blade. The Japanese term for the blade you describe is san mai.
A hamon comes from the heat treat process. Done a certain way in certain steals, a line between hard & soft steel is produced.
Click to expand...
 
Patterns can be many things - you might be referring to blade finishes, like stonewashed / satin / bead blast / blackwash / polished. Forged carbon steels will have lines that can be accented and darkened through acids, and even non-forged steels can have patterns engraved using acids. A common aftermarket finish a couple years ago, and now in production knives, is the "acid wash" where an item is acid etched and then stonewashed to produce a dark and distressed appearance, much like a very worn and used blade.

Prices vary wildly based on more characteristics than can be reasonably cohesively summarized. Basically, the knife market has blown up and there are occasional makers-of-the-minute and knives-of-the-minute that fetch high prices (remember Bodegas? How about OD-1?), and then occasionally a limited run will pop up and things will get silly.

Many new materials - or, more often, materials new to knife owners - are being introduced and implemented. They offer some significant advantages that have been overblown by overly-enthusiastic users who want to both excite others and justify their purchase (armchair psychiatrist alert), and then the excited readers discover that the material is not god's gift to sharp shiny things and are subsequently overly critical.

It's not a rational market. There's no easy way to explain what's going on other than it's interesting and exciting to be into knives at the moment. Cool stuff is happening. Stick around.
 
Buy one Opinel folder and one Mora fixed blade, then close the browser window and never log back in here again...

It's a hard thing to stop once you start here.

:D;):thumbup:
 
We were all new once. I remember asking the exact same questions as you. Hang around and read read read. 2 things will happen, you become a knife expert and you will go broke.
 
Czechmate said:
Buy one Opinel folder and one Mora fixed blade, then close the browser window and never log back in here again...

It's a hard thing to stop once you start here.

:D;):thumbup:
Click to expand...

OP, this is both a joke AND sound advice. :D Outside of the kitchen I'm using a SAK(swiss army knife) to cut things. Inside the kitchen I use a 5 dollar kiwi brand knife.

Most of the knife industry is based off of want rather than need. Like most things really. You can relate it to cars to an extent. Will a mercedes get you back and forth from the store any better than a honda? Nope but it will have some bells and whistles and maybe you'll have a more pleasant experience on the way.
 
Oh and another thing you are missing: If you take into account customs and the prominence of some makers you are more looking at $50 to $15,000+ ;)
 
Whew! Thats a lot of replies and information to take in, but I love it. I've been looking more in to Hamon and how it's accomplished and its purpose and such, that stuff is so interesting! Finishes and acid washes grabbed my attention as well and though I havent fully immersed myself in those topics yet, you can be sure I will soon. It's incredible the things we can do to metal nowadays and I'm sure that I am just seeing the tip of the iceberg so far.

Also, a Mora fixed blade doesn't look too shabby, and I have been needing something like that for a while now... that might be what I end up with shortly.

However, I really would like to see this $15,000+ custom blade. I simply cannot imagine anyone spending that much on a blade unless it was Excalibur itself.
 
Damascus is a subject all by its self. It varies from cheap knockoff variants where the pattern is just "laid" on the actual knife to hand forged carbon steel of premium quality. There are factories that churn out damascus steel in stainless and carbon (will rust if not properly cared for) to artists that forge it themselves and work and manipulate the billet for three workdays to get to a certain pattern like feather damascus.

I can only suggest you start reading everything about knives and steel, its an awesome hobby!

Buy the mora. You will be back for more sooner than later :)
 
One of the best things you can do is go to a show like The Blade Show where you can handle a ton of different knives all at the same time. It's a great place to develop a frame of reference.
 
HomelessCrayon said:
I'm just getting into knives but I seem to be missing out on something big because I see knives ranging from $50 to $500 with only minor visual differences. I assume that the difference is the quality of the blade/handle but I would love to know more about those different materials and their respective reasons for being either high or low quality. ....:)
Click to expand...

Don't assume any specific qualitative differences. Knives, like any other product will go up or down in price due primarily to marketing, the specific interest generated for the product, and the seller's ability to close and deliver on the deal. The raw materials are a tiny portion cost of production and may either help or hurt the selling price. For instance Ivory has long been a traditional component in a vast number of very high end products, including knives. But the current movement to restrict ivory items may either drop the selling price to essentially zero (unlawful to sell) or raise prices to an exponentially higher level since the surviving items will be that much harder to get. The price is just an agreed value determined by the buyer and seller. The reason for the price may have absolutely nothing to do with the quality and may even be inversely related to the quality; as in when a particular knife is very rare in great condition, because it was originally so poorly made that few examples in that condition have survived. Sometimes relatively poor designs have done well because they were used as props in a popular book or film, because somebody publish a successful collector's guide or because they were momentarily seen as innovative. There is no real or constant logic to this. Knives once relegated for kids play can within a generation rise to become exceedingly sought at very high prices. The best you can do is to stay current on the popular trends and to develop some idea of what these items are currently going for, just don't expect them to stay there indefinitely.

n2s
 
Tolerances, warranties, workmanship, and materials.

Chris Reeve knives are machined to 5 thousandths of an inch.

ZT has unmatched customer service.

Those are just a few examples. The name that comes on the knives signifies what to expect and they will strive to meet your expectations in whatever manner possible.
 
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