knife+...crossbow{longbow} or rifle?

ishiyumisan

ishiyumisan

Joined
Apr 17, 2005
Messages
465
hi everyone, I have a silly question.
I would like to ask this.
Among these three, the crossbow, longbow and rifle,
which will you choose,,,,,,,,,,,, of course after knife
watch this article....................



I am going to dispel some fantasy about the crossbow. Everyone has this image in their head that a crossbow can silently kill at 200 yards. If it is the only weapon you have it is the best one. But if you have a choice a .22 rifle with a scope is far superior but, the best silent game harvesting tool
is traps and snares. How many of you have the skill to track a wounded deer for 1 mile at night in the thickest part of the swamp when the blood spots are 1 every 20 feet? Don't tell me all of you can, there are some people that can yes, but the vast majority have no tracking skills. I have talked
to way too many bow hunters about losing wounded animals. But, that is another story all together. How many bolts for the crossbow do you own 12-24-? It doesn't really matter. Sooner or later you are going to lose them then what? Make them? You have the skill to make a wooden arrow strong
enough for a 150 pound crossbow, that will support that kind of pressure, fly straight and kill an animal? If I have to I could, is not an answer. How many bow strings do you have put away? 1-2-3? How are you going to make them when you are out? Sinew, oh really have you ever done it? I am not attacking anyone I am simply pointing out the problems with the crossbow.

Here is a great example I read in Outdoor life 10 years ago about crossbows. If the crossbow is sighted in with a scope at 50 yards it will be 14 inches high at 20 yards and 20 inches low at 100 yards. I am going by memory so it may be worst or better but the author's point was you could not hit a deer with a crossbow unless it was close to a 50 yard range if that is what the bow is sighted in for. Say the deer was only 25 yards away. What was your crossbow sighted in for? How low do you aim? Are you sure? Say you hit a deer that is quartering to you, the bolt zips through the deer. What happens next? The deer falls over dead? Rarely, most of the time the deer runs off like it has never been touched. What you do in the next 30 minutes will greatly improve your chances of harvesting the deer? Do you know what it is? Or let say you missed and the deer runs 20 feet, stops and looks back. How fast can you reload?

I read an article in a recent magazine about slingshot hunting where the author said he shoots 100 times with a slingshot per 1 kill. I will give him credit at lease he was honest. What does a slingshot have to do with crossbows? Everything. It is part of what I call fantasy survival. I am a realist and I should have been born in Missouri the show me state. When someone says something I try to find out about it because I have read and been told too many theories to bet my life on it. When you are under this illusion that a crossbow is the perfect survival weapon are you willing to bet your life on it? I read a lot different boards and the 1 thing I have found out, is people have a comfort zone that they believe because of movies and certain products sold to survivalist. That this must be the one to have the answer to silently harvesting game for survival.

I don't believe in it because you are betting your life and family life on an illusion. Hunters have this habit of sticking in their comfort zone too. They understand you shoot the animal, he falls over and dies? This satisfies the quick easy kill concept and is the best way to go syndrome. The truth,
33% of waterfowl (ducks, geese) are wounded and never harvested. This study was done by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife. It was done in the early 80's. The study was so bad for the hunters it was buried. 33% wounded and lost and an average of 7 shots per 1 kill. How many shotgun shells did you put away? Again I am going by memory but deer hunters are not much better I believe it was a 19% wounded and lost with a gun and a startling 38% wounded and lost with a bow. We can argue the facts all day, you can say this is those slob hunters, I only take perfect shots and never lost a deer. I have been around way too many hunters over the pass 30 years to agree. You will wound
and lose game. It happens to all of us. So, what is the answer to silently harvesting game? Traps and snares. With conibear traps you have 98% harvested animal. Meaning a #110 conibear set for rabbits and squirrels will catch and hold 98% of the animals that get caught in the trap. So, 100
squirrels shot at with a slingshot to get one or 98 squirrels in your traps out of 100. A #220 you are in the 98% harvested. The 330 will hold 98% of the beaver that are caught. This does not mean if you set 1 trap you have a 98% chance of catching something. On the average out of 4 trap set to catch 1 animal. Sound confusing? It is if you are not willing to learn about trapping and snaring.

What about deer? I am going to tell you about a phone call I had. Pre-Y2k. I had a few customers out of country, one from a South American country. Around March of 2000 I received a call and talked with the gentleman that ordered my Survival Snaring Video and 1 dozen Deer Snares. What happened? Nov. 1999 he decided to try and snare a deer for the freezer for his family. He set out the snares and in 1 week took 11 deer. His comment, "I have been hunting the last 3 years without getting a deer?" Needless to say he ordered more snares.

You see this is about true tested proven methods that produce results. This is not some slick Hollywood movie selling a fantasy. But if you are willing to learn you will have the edge over 99.9% of the average American.


plan no useless move, take no step in vain.

ishiyumisan
 
Well, as long as the ammunition holds out, a .22 rifle is the best among the three. At least with a longbow, you have a significantly better chance of retrieving your ammunition.

The crossbow is not an option. Although there have been significant advancements in crossbow accuracy, they're simply not effective at intermediate to longer ranges--whereas the rifle and longbow are accurate across a swath of ranges. So a crossbow would be third choice.
 
As a meat getting survival tool, the .22 w/scope is the best choice. They are accurate and deadly in capable hands at distances the other two aren't. Plus, you can carry 500 rounds without the bulk or weight of a larger caliber rifle or handgun. However, eventually you will run out of ammo, plus there are times when you won't want to attract attention with a noise making weapon and that makes the longbow the weapon of choice.

With sufficient practice, in both shooting accuracy and hunters stealth, the longbow is a deadly weapon and is whisper quiet. Ammunition can be reused and with a few natural materials, can be replentished in the wilderness. Break a string and again, natural materials can be used to fabricate another.

The crossbow/linear bow would be my last choice. It is easier for the novice to use, but they are the least accurate of the three and getting a quick 2nd shot off isn't an option, so your first shot has to be right on the money, or you've wounded/lost your families chance at food and survival. Like the above states, making bolts for a Xbow out of natural materials isn't possible. The pressures exerted on the shaft of the bolt are such, that a wooden shaft could explode, injuring the shooter. Break the string and unless you have another and the tools necessary to replace it, you are out of luck.
 
I guess it depends if you're talking about HUNTING or SURVIVAL?

If you're talking about survival (like a plane wreck or a ship wreck on a deserted island) then you're going to have to use whatever you have on hand.
You're not going to have much choice in your equipment, and it's much easier to improvise snares, traps, spears, and bow-and-arrows than it is to improvise a firearm and ammunition.

Now if you're talking about hunting, that's a different story all together.
Some folks want as many kills as they can obtain, but most hunters just enjoy the hunt itself.

I think that there is much more to hunting than just which weapon you choose to carry.
I certainly would'nt shoot a deer at 200 yards with a bow or a crossbow, and I might let him go even if I had a rifle, depending on the circumstances.
Just because you can SEE the animal does'nt mean that that you should shoot it.
An experienced hunter can take home game regardless of the weapon he is using.
I've seen many a hunter come back empty-handed and they had some of the finest rifle and optics that money can buy.
And I've seen others who use only a muzzle-loader with primitive sights, or a recurve bow with only a peep-sight, bring back trophy-size bucks.

I kinda got a kick out of this one:
"How many of you have the skill to track a wounded deer for 1 mile at night in the thickest part of the swamp when the blood spots are 1 every 20 feet?"

Heck, I don't think 99.90% of all hunters could even HIT a deer at night in the thickest part of the swamp without floodlights or a night-vision scope.

But if you did, then it would definitly be at close range (probably less than 20 meters) and so the crossbow or bow would be plenty effective at that range.
Not to mention that broadhead arrowtips generally cause more bleeding than a bullethole and so makes it easier to track the deer.

But it is food for thought.

Happy hunting,
Allen.
 
Actually, if you bow shoot a buck just before shooting hours are up and aren't lucky enough to see him go down, you could be tracking in the dark, or trying to pick up the trail in the morning, which could prove to be fruitless if it rains or snows during the night.
 
Okay, I'll give you that one.

But hunting and fishing would'nt be much fun if you were guaranteed a kill or a catch, would it?

Allen.
 
If your blood trail is 1 spot every 20 feet you should be seriously practicing better shot placement . And dropping a deer with a .22lr how ever possible would take some very serious shot placement.


I shoot a compound bow( sorry I still need training wheels) and I practice shot placement as much as I can.

Simply, what ever you have to kill with, you only have one shot to kill with, make it count or don't take it. Most guys get to excited and take stupid shots causing that poor blood trail .


For survial a .22 is great , perfect for small game ( squrriels,rabbit,grouse) but I would take a high powered air rifle over a rimfire, quiet and ammo is cheap and easy to carry in very large amounts. Some of the new air rifles are pushing 1250 fps out of the muzzel, (.177 cal.) More than enough to take small game with.


P.S I read in this forum quite a bit even though I don't post here , you guys seem to take care of things before I can ask.
thanks


cya
jimi
 
actually i think that question was in tom browns wilderness survival guide. just cause the spots are once every 20ft., doesnt mean it was bad shot placement, especially if im right, and that was tom. he wouldnt use a gun to kill a deer. his first deer was taken with a knife. he sprang from a tree, and cut its throat.
 
Knowing my luck, I would spring from the tree and impale myself on the antlers!
 
If I were a ninja, I would go with knives... And I don't think I would be able to get close to anything worth surviving on if I were trying to hit it with a crossbow or longbow, and I've never shot a firearm rifle... Therefore, I would definately die of starvation.
 
allenC said:
Heck, I don't think 99.90% of all hunters could even HIT a deer at night in the thickest part of the swamp without floodlights or a night-vision scope.

But if you did, then it would definitly be at close range (probably less than 20 meters) and so the crossbow or bow would be plenty effective at that range.
Not to mention that broadhead arrowtips generally cause more bleeding than a bullethole and so makes it easier to track the deer.

But it is food for thought.

Happy hunting,
Allen.
Click to expand...

Hi Allen I agree with you, I think you hit the needle on the head.
You made a very good point about 30m range the crossbow is more deadly than 22 caliber. This is the proof by two matters of fact, the first one is broadhead which will increase the wound so much.
I just want to make something clear, there are two kinds of broadhead. The first one is triangle blade that come two version. One single triangle and two triangle put together like a cross. The second broadhead is impact trigger mechanism which means on the impact of flesh will opens a hole at least 5cm square. About the crossbow like Allen said, you can put night vision scope or any scope you like, plus laser point too. And that increase you hit
very much too.

To all the people who don't believe that the crossbow{longbow} in short range
more powerful than 22,7.65,9,12,357,44 caliber. I want to say this, the crossbow between 30 and 50 meters is capable of penetrate bullet proof vest or bodyhummer call how you like it something that bullet does not.

And about the strings, I want to say just this, who is the guy who goes to woods and not carry at least 10 m of paracord 550.{the answer is my grand father you know why ? Because the paracord 550 was not invented yet}

Paracord 550 I am not making a mistake 550 stands for pounds or 225kg...
On my knowledge there is not any crossbow or longbow that powerful on the market today.

About the allows I will comment next time.




plan no useless move, take no step in vain.

ishiyumisan
 
[About the allows I will comment next time.]

about the ARROWS sorry for the error write above.


plan no useless move, take no step in vain.

ishiyumisan
 
I don,t have much knowledge concerning snares especially for larger game .
Survival isn,t a question of what method you choose . It is more what skills you have . I can shoot a rifle / handgun with more than reasonable accuracy . Longbow ,compound , crossbow ? shot em all . I can throw a knife or a tomahawk though I wouldn,t harvest much game with them . I can chuck a mean rock and am learning to sling . I make my own bowstrings out of dacron ,dental floss,button thread , flax , silk , gut and fishing line . I have a long ways to go at setting up a semi-permanent camp that would help sustain life and believe me thats a skill too .
My long winded point is , why not learn to snare ? It wouldn,t cost much and its another skill . There is also one thing that hasn,t been pointed out . snares will hunt for you in the rain . Snares will hunt for you in the freezing cold when you may be shiveriing so badly you couldn,t draw a bow or a bead for that matter . If you break something and are hobbling about on your last leg that snare is working hard for you .
Bring your bow , rifle or a couple of boxes of dynamite , who cares ? The most important tool you will bring is your brain . The more skills your brain has
the more likely you are to survive .
 
Hey Guys....

As far as crossbows are concerned..

I shoot an older scoped Excalibur Exocet with recurve limbs, and I can honestly say, it is one of the most accurate shooting tools I have ever owned, and perhaps Will ever own.

It's simplicity makes it easily repairable in the field, quick and simple, everything from changing strings in minutes, to changing out a set of limbs in about 15 minutes.

Zeroing in out to 35-40 yards is a matter of about 6 shots, and once again it is surgically precise. It is absolutely nothing to put 3-6 arrows into a pill bottle cap at 25-30 yards, and actually you run the risk of destroying arrows if the same target is shot at more than once.

During this past fall bear hunt I had the choice between my crossbow, 12 guage slug gun,shooting Partition Gold slugs at 200fps and my Inline 50 cal smoke pole. The crossbow was used the entire hunt, because I know the damage it does is Catastrophic and it's accuracy is unparalleled . I know for a fact when I need to count on an accurate shot,, the Excalubur will put out.

So in a hunting situation be it deer, bear, rabbits and squirrels, if they are in that 35 yard range they are as good as dead, and if they aren't it's due to user error.

I'll also agree with the air rifle suggestion that Jimi made..

I shoot a RWS mod 48 at 1100FPS, and it is also one of my favorite "Meat Guns". A very capable tool for putting small game on the table. With a properly placed shot in the boiler room of a rabbit or squirrell it's lights out and theres going to be some gut pail action for sure..

Now in a survival situation, theres no doubt that snares and traps such as the Konibear work hard for you, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if you wish, and can put a great deal of meat on the table if you know how to use them properly..

As a teenager we were bequeathed a fair amount of Konibears from an old trapper who was hanging them up, and soon learned how to put them to good use, with our own little trap line. Rabbits, Squirrells, fox, coon, mink, muskrat, a couple of curious cats were all taken with these traps. Nothing was guaranteed,, but we sure cleaned house with them on many occasion.

In a SHTF situation I would surely want a good number of these in my inventory...

ttyle

Eric...
 
I don't subscribe much to the "what will you use to hunt with while surviving debate" but there is one thing in the initial thread that I MUST comment on.


So, 100 squirrels shot at with a slingshot to get one or 98 squirrels in your traps out of 100.
Click to expand...

Man, where the hell did you learn to shoot a slingshot?! Given, approx 25 yards, I can hit a beer bottle cap 8/10 times, and something like a squirrel or rabbit presents a much larger target. Ammo's light, and you don't even need to bring ammo.. find a decent sized rock, or a small pine cone.. granted, you just killed your accuracy with field aquired ammo... but it's a lot better then hoping beyond hope that when your starving, something decides to walk into your trap. I know, traps are a great augment to other methods.. but I'll be damned if it'd be my primary method.

Something else I have in my kit, that I'm surprised no one has mentioned is a blow gun. Cold Steel's line of blow guns are perfect.. they double as a hiking staff, and extremely durable. Ammo is cheap, light, and a hit means nearly 100% ammo reclaim from the kill. I've never had to use one beyond 45', but I know they can go farther if your skilled enough.

And I must also vote for the airgun, a good B/S or RWS would do better for small game then most .22 rigs, simply because you can carry 20x the ammo for the same weight/space.

In reguards to the bow/crossbow/rifle thing, I'd choose my longbow, simply because I know how to make strings, arrows, and even a replacement bow should the need arise. I'm not to sure I could make a replacement firing pin, or make bullets in a survival situation.
 
22LR guns are light. Moreover, if you put a silencer they become very silent. I was very surprised when I was given to shoot a 22LR gun with a silencer - it was quieter than normal male voice of the guy who was standing next to me! With or without optical sites I can shoot it much better than my Barnett Delta Storm crossbow or Black Douglas bow from Borders Archery.

It is also a good question about ammunition. I break/lose 1-3 arrows and bolts every time I go for field archery shooting. You usually have 12 arrows/bolts, so, speaking theoretically, if you cannot replenish the number of arrows/bolts, you will run out of them in 3-4 days.

It is quite inconvenient to carry a crossbow or bow in bushes in comparison to a light 22LR gun just because the gun does not catches tree branches, grass etc.

I would not say bow and crossbow are silent - when you shoot, the string moves pretty fast and makes quite a noise. Of course, you can put string silencers to reduce it, but sound of a shot from 22LR with a silencer did not attract as much of my attention as a sound of a moving string.

I would say my bow is the most powerful. Yes, my crossbow is 150 lb while my bow is 62 lb, but arms on the bow are larger, the arrows flies faster than the bolt and the arrow is heavier than the bolt. When arrow hits the target it is quite difficult to pull it out because the plastic on the target melts a bit because of heat caused by fast movement of the arrow in the target. Targets are much harder than lamb's body and arrows usually penetrate targets to about 3-4 inches before stopping, so I am sure it would go through a few lambs if I decided to test arrows' penetration ability.

About bullet-proof vests - bullets rip threads of the vests thus quickly losing energy. Arrows and bolts, when they hit vests, move the threads aside without ripping them up and therefore they do not lose much of energy. Therefore the penetration ability of arrows/bolts is higher. It is not only with bolts and arrows. Similar thing happened a few times when criminals stubbed through police vests using knives with narrow blades. And those vests could stop 9 mm pistol bullets...

I do not have any sights on my crossbow or bow, therefore I cannot say much about precision, but anyway, 22LR seems to me much better choice for practical reasons.

I actually tried to find out what models of bows and crossbows are in military use, but found only one reference about a bowmaker in the UK. However, his bow did not impress me much. You cannot shoot bows and crossbows on long distances because they are much stronger affected by side wind than a small bullet. I only heart once that on competition people shot on 90 yards at targets of bears, it is just too far for a bow or a crossbow. And if you want to hit a target something like 4 inch in diameter, it is quite an optimistic distance.

There are people in Africa who still hunt with bows, but they use their stalking skills for hunting, not shooting. According to people from my club, these people shoot as precise as an average bowshooter, but their stalking skills are just admirable, they can sneak to a pray so close that they can nearly touch them. So, the reality really comes down not to how far and precise you can shoot, but how close you can get to the target. They shoot on 5-15 yards distance! Actually, their arrows are not straight at all, so they cannot shoot further with a good precision :)
 
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