Knife defense/carry legal questions

N

Nightglock

Joined
Sep 2, 1999
Messages
138
Hi, I'm wondering what are the legal procedures to the following scenarios. I'm primarily concerned about my right to carry my knives:

1) I carry an Emerson CQC7 which has a blade of about 3.3-3.5 inches long primarily for defense. If a police officer stops me and asks me what I'm carrying it for, what do I say? I'm asking this because I heard that saying it's for defense, is the wrong answer. I also plan on getting a small Sebenza for utility purposes and I'm sure I'd have to provide a reasonable explanation for carrying that as well. Also I carry the knives with the clip outside of my pocket so it's not a concealed weapon.

2) Suppose I'm carrying my CQC7 and some guy comes up to me and asks me for my money, I say no and he grabs me searching for my wallet while I deploy my CQC7 and slash him on his arm. He then runs away screaming in pain. What is the first legal course of action that I should do? Would I be in more trouble if I say slashed him across his belly?

Thanks.
By the way, is there an organization for knives like the N.R.A. for guns?
 
Nightglock, I'm from Canada so the specific laws area little different, but some things work no matter where you are.

Your CQC-7 isn't for defense, it's for opening cardboard boxes, peeling apples, whittling, etc.

If someone attacks you, you generally have the right to defend yourself with "appropriate force". A slash on the arm is a lot less than disemboweling. And if you chase after the attacker, YOU become the attacker.

As for what to do after an attack. I'm really not sure. If the world were aperfect place I'd go to the cops and report. But in the real world I'd have to wonder how the cops wouold view me and my knife. The cops might give me more trouble than the crook. It's unfortunate, but I have heard such stories.

The group you're looking for is the AKTI, just do a search and you'll find all the info you need.

I hope this helps, but remember I'm not a lawyer, just opinionated.

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"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.

[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 01-23-2000).]
 
AKTI is the NRA for knives.

those other questions are valid but I don't know the answers. I'd like to know.

-ediconu

D'OH! someone beat me to it.
smile.gif


[This message has been edited by unocide (edited 01-23-2000).]
 
They way I understand it is that folders with a blade length of less than 4" are legal to carry concealed (in your pocket) in California. I don't know the specific codes to support this (I would like to know them) but I do know that virtually 99% of the folders which have pocket clips (for concealed carry in the pocket) do have a blade of slightly less than 4" in length.

Also, remember that your knife is used only for utility purposes... never for self defense. If you use it for self defense, then it could be classified as a weapon.

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As Johan stated, the laws on knives varies greatly depending on the part of the country (or part of the world) you are. As a cop from southwest Ohio (middle USA) I would never be able to get a conviction against someone for simply carrying a knife, even a rather large one... unless the person was committing an additional crime where the knife was, or could possibly have been used.

I was at a training session with cops from around the country several years ago and I was suprised when I found out how restrictive the knife laws, and the enforcement of these laws, were in some parts of the US

If you are involved in something always rember: You Have The Right To Remain Silent.

Most laws on the books are kneejerk reactions to non-existant problems. Why else would we have a law (in Ohio) against ballistic knives. Does anyone know of anybody who has or has wanted to carry a ballistic knife for selfe defense?

Oh well, I didn't mean to be so long winded.

mike

[This message has been edited by mike45 (edited 01-23-2000).]
 
The CQC7 at just under 4" is over the legal limit in some areas. So, you'll want to check that.

Generally speaking, it's not a good idea to declare that your knife is for use as a weapon. Why carry two? "Well, you know, I carry one for utility, opening boxes, getting an orange peel started, that sort of thing. This morning, I couldn't find my regular knife, so I grabbed this other one so I wouldn't be late. Then, after I was out the door, I discovered that my regular knife was in my pocket all the time. So, I've got two today."

Check the definition of "not concealed" in your area. In Oregon, it's fine if the clip is showing (but watch out for any jacket or sweater that might cover your pocket).

In the case of a mugging, there is either an explicit or an implied threat. "Give me your wallet or I will cause you a great bodily injury." This turns it into a self-defense situation. In most states, when someone threatens to cause you a great bodily injury, you have the right to defend yourself using deadly force such as a knife.

Now, when you draw your knife, you are threatening him. You are now threatening to cause him a great bodily injury. So, you'd better make your response decisive. If you flash your knife around or slash his arm a bit, he can pull a gun and shoot you.

Your first action after a successful defense is to remove yourself from the dangerous situation. If you feel like you are in danger if you stay at the scene, then you may leave and go to the first and nearest place where you do feel safe. Your second action is to call the police and report the situation. To not do so makes you guilty of fleeing a crime scene (remember, we haven't yet determined who the criminal here is). Your third act should be to get yourself the very best lawyer you can afford. You should assert from your very first contact with authorities that you felt that your attacker was threatening you and that you acted in self-defense. State this to the 911 operator so that it's on the tape and your lawyer can play that tape for the jury and say, "From the very first moment, this was a self-defense act."

The closest thing I am aware of to the NRA for knives is AKTI http://www.akti.org/



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick
 
Well said, Gollnick. There are two points I'd like to elaborate on though.

One is the issue of concealed carry. Just because the clip of your knife is showing, that doesn't necessarily mean that the knife isn't concealed. In some states, a weapon is not concealed only if it can be readily identified as a weapon by members of the general public.

A prosecutor could argue that your knife was concealed because the clip does not identify it as a knife; it could be the clip of a pager, wallet, watch or whatever. Granted, it would be difficult to get a conviction in this type of case, but they might try it if it's not a stand alone charge.

Second, the AKTI is not the NRA for knives. The organizations provide similar services, but their philosophies are vastly different.

The NRA says that there's nothing wrong with owning and using weapons. The AKTI simply says that knives are not weapons. It's not that the ATKI thinks that owning weapons is bad, they just don't have anything to say about it.

You're going to have an easier time convincing people that knives are not weapons than convincing them that there's nothing wrong with carrying a weapon. This explains AKTI's philosophy and it explains why you should tell an officer that your knife is a tool.

The following is from the FAQ section of AKTI's website:

"Is AKTI going to be the NRA for knives?

AKTI's position is that gun issues and knife issues are different in that knives play a key role in the everyday lifestyles of average citizens. AKTI will work for responsible knife laws that our society can live with in a reasonable manner. However, in the way that the NRA represents the gun owner, AKTI will represent the knife community."




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Cerulean

What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain? - Blake
 
Mr. Mike45 makes another very important point that is worth elaborating on: if anyone with a badge every says to you, "You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to speak with an attorney..." Do so. Take both of those pieces of advice. Politely decline to answer any further questions or many any further statements. Say, "My attorney told me that if I was ever arrested for anything, I should not answer any questions or make any statements until he is present and I have consulted with him." It's important to say those magic words, "My attorney told me..." You see, no officer wants to put himself between an attorney and his client. That's a very dangerous place to go. So, go ahead and invoke the spector of the attorney. Create that mine field around yourself.

I was once given one other bit of advice that I'll pass on. If you're ever in a situation such as this and the officers involved continue to pressure you and won't take no comment for an answer, just clutch your chest and say in your most pained voice, "Officer, I'm having chest pains. They're shooting down my left arm. I feel like I can't breath. I'm dizzy. I think I might pass out." You will be taken to an emergency room immediately where, once separated from the offensive officers and the stressful situation, and once your attorney arrives to further insulate you, you can make a miraculous recovery.

If you do act in self-defense, expect to be arrested. Expect to be put in jail. It's not a police officer's place to decide the difference between self-defense and first-degree murder. If the officer arrives and finds a dead man on the ground with your knife stuck in him, it doesn't matter how obvious it is that you acted in self-defense. Things aren't always what they seem to be. It's reasonable to suspect that maybe you murdered the guy. The officer must arrest you. Everything will get sorted out after the excitment and emotion of the situation passes. Just assert that you acted in self defense.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick
 
Thanks for responding everyone. It's funny how U.S. citizens are allowed to right to defend themselves (although the right to own firearms may possibly be stripped away from us, with the right to own knives probably following after that), but yet if we exercise that right, we will first be treated like a criminal. What's up with this legal system? I just pray that the non-gun and non-knife people finally realize that if we didn't have guns or knives, we wouldn't be able to protect ourselves from the criminals who can easily obtain them over the black market. Although I live in the state of Maryland (which doesn't issue CCW as freely as other states), I still believe in the right to protect myself and the only legal way I can do it is with my knives (while walking around in public, while at home, that's another story). Sorry to break off on a tangent, but I like many others am outraged at what this country is turning into. Anyways, back to the original topic. I know that it probably won't be very often that I'm held up for robbery, but I still want to be prepared somehow just in case I do. I do know that if you can escape a situation, then do so and don't draw your knife unless it's an absolute emergency. Well, that's a bit of steam blown out. Thanks everyone for your replies.
 
Repeatedly, states that have inacted Shall Issue CHL programs have experienced dramatic drops in violent crime over the following three years and seen those rates remain down in the following years. The idea that any random citizen might be carrying a gun sort of raises the bar for criminals. There are a lot of people who have the courage and determination to rob you, but there are fewer who have the courage and determination to risk facing a gun.

The average person has maybe, what?, maybe $50 in his wallet. The credit cards may be worth a few hundred dollars more (with computer verification these days and 24/7 customer service lines that can cancle stolen cards virtually instantly, the value of stolen credit cards has gone way down). So, a typical wallet is worth maybe $200-500. What would you do for $500? Would you engage in a live knife fight? Would you stare down a loaded gun? Keep in mind that most criminals don't have medical insurance. Gunshot and knife wounds brought to clinics and ERs have to be reported to authorities anyway.

Criminals are people who exploit the weaknesses of others. If they themselves are weakened by an injury, then their comrads will certainly exploit them.

Criminals don't get paid medical leave or disability insurance either. If they get injured and can "work at their choose profession", nobody's gonna support them.

So, they pick their targets. Adding the specter of any citizen carrying concealed guns and knives certainly makes may would-be criminals reconsider their choice of occupation.

States that have inacted shall-issue CHL laws have seen violent crime rates drop as no other laws or programs have been able to make them drop. On the other hand, most of these states have also seen their property crime rates increase. Car burglery and theft especially tend to go up. Portland, Oregun has one of the highest car theft rates of any city its size in the country. A lot of criminals who used to mug people are now stealing cars instead. It's safer "work."

For the law-abidding citizen, the question now is: would you rather be mugged or have your car stolen? Please, please, take my car. It's worth less than that average wallet. Seriously, though, as annoying as a car theft would be, it doesn't place me in immediate danger.

If guns and knives were elliminated from our society, that risk bar for criminals would be lowered almost to the floor. Just as elliminating hunting would lead to a dramatic increase in wildlife populations, elliminating self-defense and the tools for it, would lead to a dramatic increase in the criminal population.





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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick
 
Nightglock, as was said earlier, the police do not have the right to decide if an action was in self defense or not. If you went to death row in any state, among those who would admit their culpability, most would argue that their action was justified. The bar for seriously injuring or killing another person should be high or else we are all in danger from insecure people who happened to scared of somebody who looks different or acts oddly.

Would you want to be shot or bludgeoned by someone who felt threatened by your knife clip or holster?
 
Gentlemen; leave your ego at home when you go out on the street. If someone demands your money, take it all out of your wallet, toss it into the air, and start running away. Make the perp choose between the money and you. Unless you are wearing an expensive watch or other jewelry, the perp will choose the money.

I carry around $1000 in my wallet for this very purpose. I DON'T want the guy to be disappointed in his haul. I want him to be very, very happy. There is no distraction so effective as a cloud of $50s and $100s floating down.

Think I am stupid? I spent 10 years working in an Emergency Dept. in a ghetto. I know my way around. The grand I cheerfully give up is MUCH MUCH less than the value of my time I would spend in the police dept./jail. It is MUCH MUCH less than the money I would spend retaining a criminal attorney to defend me, let alone the eventual cost of the defense. It is MUCH MUCH less than I would have to spend in a civil suit brought about by the perp, who would claim he was minding his own business, and I stabbed him without provocation.

I would consider the money yielded by me in any robbery to be well spent.

Walt
 
Walt,
Your point is a good one. It brings to mind stories from years ago of people in big, bad cities like New York, carrying a second "mugging" wallet with $20 or so in it. While most of can't afford to be quite as "generous" as you, $50 in small bills should still be a pretty good distraction.

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Dave

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of More Knives
 
Nightglock,

I am an LEO with 13 years on. I am also a Libertarian who believes strongly in the right to be armed for any good citizen.

You are going to have check your local laws as they change from state to county to city.
Here in Washington there is no length law on a folder or pocket knife. I personally carry a CS vaquero grande. If you drive into the city of Seattle, your knife is now illegal, as they have a 3 inch or less rule.

Most officers are uneducated about weapons and carry methods. They may have glanced at the actual law once in the academy or just rely on what the "Sarge" said at roll call. If you ask them on the street they will take the safe way out and tell you 'everything' is illegal. Read you local laws on your own.

If asked, your knife is a tool and you should be able to explain some things you do with it. My vaquero grande is used to pull staples, cut paper, trim branches, slice bread for a sandwich, etc. and I have people who can testify to this if it comes down to it in court.

If you use your knife in self-defense call the cops. 911 is always recorded. Tell the operator who you are, where you are, that you were attacked by someone who was trying to kill you/do you serious bodily harm, that you defended yourself with your POCKET KNIFE (implying a friendly tool pressed into protective service) and describe your attacker, then wait. It doesn't hurt if you can sound scared sh*tless, while doing this.

If, as you implied, your attacker has a slashed arm and has run off, then repeat the above to the officers when the arrive. DON'T SAY ANYTHING MORE! Request to talk to an attorney before you say anything else or put anything in writing.

The BG may have looked mighty healthy when he ran away, but if he bleeds to death in an alley, you have killed someone and you will be put thru the wringer. Allow them to collect physical evidence. This will mean giving up your knife and probably your clothes. Live with it.

Don't fall for the 'an innocent man has nothing to hide' BS. There are officers out there who just want to make arrests and make a career or who don't believe that common folk have the right to defend themselves. 90% of the officers I know are good guys, who would be on your side, but the other 10% don't have signs on them warning you, so play it safe.

Last piece of common sense (which is so uncommon nowadays) advice. If you know you did the right thing, know you are a good, law abiding citizen and know your 'legal rights', when that young rookie cop shows up, pointing a Glock at your head and screaming at you, because he's really scared, DO EVERYTHING he says and take it up with his sergeant later.

 
Considering the screwed up judicial system in this nation(victims or good guys constantly being hassled), if a BG gets cut by you and flees in the night in some big city, would not your best option be to take off also? Only a OJ can use a knife and get away with it! I would bet there are plenty of BG's shot or slashed by honest people attacked on the streets who never are found!. The good guys are not going to wait around for the coppers if they can help it. There are just too many anti gun and anti knife civilians and police around in this society today. And the odds of You being found are very rare today. Best bet is to hit the road after a attack and hope for the best.I really sympathize with people in these cities who are subjected to all this street scum. My advice may sound"illegal",but court system really could care less about crime victims in modern America.
 
Hi Nightglock,

There is another point here that I'd like to address. You can only think about your knife as a weapon if you know how to use it as a weapon. Drawing a knife puts you in more danger as the other guy now feels threatened. So if you ever wanted to do that you'd better know what you are doing!

Kris


[This message has been edited by jeegeet (edited 01-25-2000).]
 
Pulling a knife would be the last thing I do, and would probably come somewhere around the time I realize the guy really doesn't want my wallet. Neither my life, nor his, is worth what I have ever carried in my wallet, much less what is normally there. And if a knife comes out, it's goal will be to kill him.

That said, having pulled a knife, and failed to kill my assailant, I would call 911. Having succeeded, I would call as well. I would also render first aid to the best of my ability (With respect for blood contamination. I should carry gloves and a one-way mask, but haven't for a while... hmmm... 'nother belt accessory) if my assailant were disabled. If he were still conscious, but obviously down, this would likely consist of tossing him a hankie and giving him verbal instructions on how to best stop the blood flow (This is all the more I did for scouts who slit themselves, though I usually had a band-aid too...).

911 comes before first aid, and first aid only comes if I can do so without endangering myself. No treatment without gloves, no CPR without mask. No approaching if my assailant is semi-conscious. Knife does not go back in pocket/clothes, it will lay on the street where I last used it. I will obey the police very much, and will inform them of the approximate location, condition and armament (Past tense and present) of my assailant. This is all they need to know. My knife will become evidence, as will the body and weaponry of my assailant. I pray his weapon looks more dangerous than my knife
smile.gif
The only dangerous thing I intend on displaying upon pulling a knife out, is the glint in my eye.

I would believe I would go to jail at this point, and very well could be brought up on charges of some kind or another. The possibility exists that I could be readily released, or stay in a cell for a wee bit. I do not ever expect to see my knife back, though I would certainly try to get it back, _after_ the final outcome is determined. If I can manage to get my assailants weapon as well, I'll mount it.


And now that the hypothetical portion is done, story time begins. Remember, stories need have only 10% truth (Not mandatory).

A friend of a friend (Donthca love these ones) told a story of a Lady Knight (I'm in the SCA. we do silly things like dressing up in armor and bashing each other over the head with rattan weaponry. A knight is very good at this) walking home from an event (Where we got together, and probably bashed our heads in) dressed in full garb (And if she had spent the day bashing heads in, carrying an armor bag as well). She took the bus home, and after getting off the bus, and heading down the last stretch to her house, was assailed by a thug with a small knife (OK, so it was a six incher, only 10% truth here). She looked at the knife, looked at him (Probably dropping the armor bag at some point here) and proceeded to draw the sword buckled to her belt. (Remember, she was a Lady Knight. The thug obviously didn't notice the spurs she was wearing, or the chain around her neck) She is reported to have said, "I see your six, and raise you thirty" before the thug decided he no longer liked the location he was in, and fled, leaving his small knife. Today, both blades, and her purported words, lie on a plaque on her wall.

The moral of this story, don't carry a blade unless you can use it. And always have something witty to say
smile.gif


Stryver, who probably believes the story, and would have been afraid of the Lady Knight had she merely drawn a rattan stick.
 
Unfortunately, rendering aide to your fallen attacker is dangerous tactically and legally.

Tactically, he may be "playing possum" hoping to draw you in to whatever surprise he has (don't assume that your attacker has only one weapon). "But," you may object, "He's cut and bleeding everywhere." Well, I used to work for a veterinary hospital (mostly horses) and we had a bit of a saying, "A little blood goes a long way." This person has demonstrated that he's willing to do unkind things to you and it's not reasonable to assume that that has changed.

Furthermore, your attacker may be drunk or otherwise intoxicated or maybe insane. If he wakes up suddenly, he may mistake your kind attempts at CPR for a man-eating monster from Mars trying to suck his brains out and may, in his state, attack you in a sort of strange case of self-defense.

Finally, legally, rendering aide to your attacker will actually hurt your case in court. It's hard to convince a court that one second you felt that this person was trying to kill you, you were so terrified of this person that you took the most extreme of measures, you felt so threatened by this person that you stabbed him with a knife or shot him with a gun and then, a split-second later, you felt such pitty and compassion for this poor fellow that you felt comfortable offering first aide. That story doesn't work.

If you're sitting in a cafe having a bite and suddenly the person at the table next to you starts choking, there's a reasonable expectation that you might render aide in whatever way you can. That's what we do in civil society. But, when a criminal steps out of the bounds of civil society, when he threatens to take your life violently, then he gives up any expectation he might have had that you'd help him if he became hurt.

Now, I would like to echo two other points that have been made here. First, Oregon, like most states, has what is called a "big chicken law". This basically means that if there's a way for you to escape, you have to take that option before you employ deadly force (and just about any knife is legally deadly force). This is not only the law, but it's good common sense. $500, which is what your wallet might be worth, is not worth risking any sort of serious injury, much less risking your life over. Toss the money up in the air and run for your life. The idea of keeping a second wallet is a good one. Look in magazines for credit card ads that feature pictures of credit cards. Cut those out and put them in your decoy wallet. The criminal won't realize they're worthless until later. $50 is a small price to pay to avoid a serious injury.

Finally, knife fighting is a very serious subject. There is art and there is science to it. One mistake can cost you your life -- seriously. So, if you don't know what you're doing, don't try it. If you're interested, get some good training.

BTW, knife fighting is fun, a great workout, and a great sport. But, the really interesting thing about is that the more you train, the more terrified of a real knife fight you'll become.




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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick
 
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