knife designing- before you pick up the hammer

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I have had several conversations over the past year with people who say,"I never know what a knife will look like until its done."While that may work for abstract art,it is not a good way to build knives.I'll start with some ideas on designing knives,and you other makers add on your tips.We should build up a pretty good tutorial thread.

FIRST, get a pad of note paper,several are better.Put one next to your easy chair,one in the shop,etc.When you think of and idea or improvement jot it down,sketch it,change a previous sketch,....

The most important thing is to understand what the function of the knife will be.Then decide on the basic shape/style you have in mind.Think of any unique features and ideas you have that the knife will be using.

Don't necessarily go with the first idea,a good design evolves.If this is a custom knife for a customer,involve the person in this evolution.Instead of a good knife you will end up with the best knife.

Make paper,cardboard,Masonite profiles.Hold them ,swing them around ,pretend you are doing whatever the function of the knife is.Does it feel right,what could change?Trim,remake,experiment.I prefer Masonite (1/8 and 1/4" are less than $10 for a 4X8'sheet).It grinds like real soft wood,doesn't splinter,and you have a permanent pattern to go by.You can also mail it to the customer (I mail several possible candidates) ,for him to try out and comment on.Write notes on the patterns.Keep everything in an old shoe box,what didn't work today may be the right thing on another day.

Use clay,wood,aluminum,anything to work up the design.CAD programs are nice,but your hands tell you what feels right.

Once you have the basic design thought up,THEN decide what materials will be used.At this point you will have enough information to pick the best steel,handle material,etc.As you consider the material you may change your design- Stick tangs may become full tangs;Wood may become stag;Guards and pommels may change to mokume' and butt caps;and so on.

Never be penny wise and pound foolish! The difference of $10 dollars in material cost is nothing compared to the hours you will be investing in the knife.

Don't be in a hurry.This is the downfall of many (most) new makers - myself included - to rush into the shop and make as many knives as you can crank out.Without a good idea in you mind,they will be mediocre at best.Before you light the forge or turn on the grinder,have a very defined image of the finished knife and how you are going to form it.Again,PUT IT ON PAPER,so you can refer to it as needed.

Work slow,think ahead to the next step or two.This will avoid trying to drill holes in hardened steel ,soldering on a guard before you have put the final grind on a blade,etching steel with tape covering the guard,and such other"Learning experiences".

Don't despair your mistakes,they teach you a lot about what doesn't work.

Don't accept half measures of effort/skill/talent from yourself.Never say,"Well it isn't right,but it will be OK." If possible,go back and fix the problem.It is better to regrind a scratch out than to say ,"Its not that bad."Any BAD that can be avoided/corrected is still BAD.On every knife do the best that you are capable of,and take pride in the fact that you did! Any established maker has a big barrel of rejected blades that didn't come out "quite right".They don't accept 'almost good', and neither should you.

Any process grows- change things as you make the knife/handle to incorporate things that come up.A beautiful burl pattern that appears while grinding;an interesting rise to the point as you forge;a curve to the finger guard as you shape it.....

Try to finish a project before you go off on an entirely new one.The creative juices go stale (or rot) if left too long.I have been known to pull a half forged blade from my forging bag and say,"What was I going to do with this blade?

Practice,practice,practice.And when you have it perfect,practice some more.God made scrap steel (and friends who dump it on you) for practice.When learning the feel of hot steel under the hammer,and how it moves,any carbon steel is good steel.BUT,throw it into a box that only you will ever see when your done.Don't be tempted to 'Finish' it as a junk knife since you have time in it.You don't want to be known as the maker of junk.That box will be your best investment of time and learning.

OK,what other ideas do you guys have?...........

 

[paintfool]

I have one for the new makers like myself...
bring a pen and paper!

just like in the monday post, I said it's really hard to remeber everything when you visit a maker, I find that if you give them a pen and paper and get them to write the stuff down as they talk, or you can try to write everything down as they talk.

small task but I find it a huge help, especially when I get home and have forgotten everything already, I just look at the paper.

this might sound stupid too, but I have kept every single drawing since I started a few months ago, that's a lot when I draw 1 or 2 per day, that way I can take what I like and get rid of what I don't like from each knife and I usually come up with my next blade idea.

this is a good thread idea

 

[rhrocker]

I really like this thread! Thanks for starting it, this really makes sense to me.

 

[Gib Guignard]

Well I do it a bit different. I could not draw a knife if I wanted to so I have a idea and go the forge or grinder, depending on construction method, and put it into steel (Masonite is a good idea for stock removal) and then let the idea have it's way and sometimes you end up with a knife a lot different than what you started to do. Feel has a lot to do with this method and you find that at times you need tweak it some. Just my way to do it. Now I do follow drawings from customers and my Buddy/collaborator Chuck but when I have a idea this is what happens. Gib

 

[Dan Gray]

I have had several conversations over the past year with people who say,"I never know what a knife will look like until its done."While that may work for abstract art,it is not a good way to build knives.....

you say.. it is not a good way to build knives you need to word things differently.. :footinmou
I'm just busting your chops here..

I know a guy that does it this way all the time and he will sell every knife he makes. ((BUT))
that is good for him and the best way for him. don't get me wrong here he can make from paper with the best of them...(a 30+ year maker I may add him and I started about the same time..)

we will all fine that starting out depending on our ability, some just can't get it right everytime and it just comes out wrong from the dawning and that is OK and a learning curve from these one of a kinds and not limited to the reason in the latter.

the ((BUT)) is, he gets it the way he pictures in his head, and has options to work with.
for those of us that copy our own work also, we have to be able to get it down pat. and of course use paper.
a guy told me a long time ago that you'll have to make at least 50+ knives to do it right,, well I didn't agree,,I was putting these out and pretty nice ones long before then..

but now to look back,, the meaning was,, after 50+ knives you'll feel more comfortable with your grinding so you can grind what you want at your will...when you want, how you want. this can take the paper work out of it it depends on you....if I make a knife that is not for a customer I just start grinding and see what happens. this takes me back to the good ole day of what the hell am I doing,,but since with a the control that I wished I had then..

 

[B . Buxton]

I design all my work with a hammer, I never draw anything out on paper. I forge the shapes I want then tweak here or there to get the desired up or down turn of the blades. There's been many a time that I've just started pounding with little idea of what I was after and those knives have sold the quickest, let the hammer be the designer I say and keep swinging.

Have fun and don't think about this stuff to hard, after all its not rocket science.

Bill

 

[Gib Guignard]

Bill, You are so right, just follow where the art leads. Gib

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I figured there would be several takes to how to start a knife.That is the great thing about this forum.I agree that an experienced bladesmith can take a piece of steel and make it do anything he wants,within reason.However,when creating a new design,by a novice maker,planning is the best way.I have always taught this to apprentices , "People don't plan to fail,they fail to plan."

 

[B . Buxton]

"people don't plan to fail, they fail to plan" thats a pretty good thing to think about. But also when someone sets him or herself to only produce a certion shape or design, then they're liable to set theirselves up for disappointment. There hasn't been a knife shape or design that hasn't been made by someone at some time, and for the novice to put such pressures on themselves to produce a new design is only a setting for disaster. I've found that anyone can make a knife, its making a good knife that takes knowledge and commitment through the heat treating and testing. Have fun with it, why try to make making knives such a complicated science. Its not a magic wand like some makers would have you believe.

Bladsmth, I'm not disagreeing with your ideas or techniques, for we all have our own ideas and techniques on what we do every day, and if you think you need to draw your designs out, thats cool, but thats not my style and the only drawings I want is a drawing from a customer when he or she has a particular shape in mind, so I can produce what they want. Other then that let your creative juices flow though the hammer. Happy Hammering.

Bill

 

[Dan Gray]

Busting chops
when you say "it is not a good way to build knives"
or
However,when creating a new design,by a novice maker,planning is the best

My point...
that was not taken I guess..
if you presented different (as an opinion) this would have been more to the liken to at least me, I'm not speaking for the others here..,, and presented as a fact
well not so good,
do you/we learn from the apprentices also if not we limit ourselves in freshness of new ideas.
. I see this as your take on it,,, not fact as you present it ..

just my opinion

 

[Jason Magruder]

I think that Stacy is trying to say that if you are trying to make a knife with a specific purpose or use then it is not usually a good idea to just start pounding and see what comes out. If you want to make a kind of knife that you haven't made before then it is a good idea to make up a few wood models to see how well your idea works and make some final adjustments before investing your time in making a blade that may or may not be what you thought it would. It really sucks to spend all those hours making a knife only to find out that it has some little design flaw that keeps it from performing as well as it should. Obviously if you have been making for a long time and have a really good understanding of what works and what doesn't then this becomes less of an issue. That's you Bill

 

[Dan Gray]

busting chops

 

[Mark Williams]

I think you are all full of crap. It's whatever the little forge fairies decide as to how the knife turns out. And the moon.

 

[B . Buxton]

Jason I know what your saying, but I started making knives many years ago and I never did any drawings. But like I said before, if thats your style, cool. Just don't say this is the way it should be done. I have made several knives that didn't turn out for crap, but I learned something from each one I made. That would have never happened if I would have just had a certain design in mind and it would have been crap if I had drawn it or not. I guess I just have different approachs on things, I believe that when you restrict yourself to following a set design or mind set, you limit your abilities to grow if they work out or not, at least you had fun and learned from your mistakes. And I've had a lot of them. You can do what ever you want in your shop, and if you think you have a design that is a one of a kind and are afraid of forgetting it, sure put it on paper. Just have fun and don't limit yourself to any one mindset.

Keep hammerin

Bill

 

[Dan Gray]

I think you are all full of crap. It's whatever the little forge fairies decide as to how the knife turns out. And the moon.

Mark
don't forget.
temper with tip pointed North

 

[Burchtree]

some of my favorite designs of mine have been "mistakes." Unless I am working on a design for a customer, most of the time I'll just have a general idea in my head and start grinding/hammering.

 

[oljoe]

I like this thread. It's apparent that there are diffrent schools of thought here that are good. This world would be pretty dull if everyone thought the same way. I myself have have gone through the steps that bladsmth mentioned and still ended up changing in midstream. Some turned out good and others are sticking in the wall of my shop. I think the whole point is that each knifemaker should do what works best for them. One point that realy stuck out to me was to work slow and think ahead to the next step or two.

Joe Foster

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

My intent of this thread was for the new maker to avoid some of the disappointments that often strike when learning.I agree that everyone will have his or her own way of forging and building a knife.It is learned through experience,and the experience of others is valuable. If you read these threads regularly,you will notice many new makers are rushing to do things before they are ready,or in the wrong order.If they sat down BEFORE YOU PICK UP THE HAMMER,and thought it through ,they would often avoid the error.They would also see where they need to study up on a technique,look up a temperature,etc.
That said,and with all respect to the old school,modern bladesmithing is science (I have never seen Bill Moran,Joe Keeslar,Dr. Batson,or any ABS master teach a class that the students weren't writing down the info on note pads).Knives changed little for thousands of years,and yes they all cut meat and wood.Today we use a variety of steel,techniques,and handle materials never known to those makers.If you gave a piece of CPM S30V and some G-10 to the best bladesmith in Sheffield in 1800,he would not make a knife worth a dime.He would declare the material useless.That same material given to a student at a knife making class will produce a top grade blade today.With computerized temperature controllers,salt pots,cryogenic treatments,high tech steel and materials,milling machines,you name it.....This is science.One of the reasons that this art almost died out 50 years ago is that no one taught it as a science,only as a skill.Practice a lot with a hammer only,but when designing plan with your head.Maybe that's why Buck and Randall make millions and the rest of us make a bare living or less from knives.PLANNING!

 

[Dan Gray]

1 If they sat down BEFORE YOU PICK UP THE HAMMER,and thought it through ,they would often avoid the error.

2 and with all respect to the old school,modern bladesmithing is science (I have never seen Bill Moran,Joe Keeslar,Dr. Batson,or any ABS master teach a class that the students weren't writing down the info on note pads).

3 If you gave a piece of CPM S30V and some G-10 to the best bladesmith in Sheffield in 1800,he would not make a knife worth a dime.He would declare the material useless.

4 That same material given to a student at a knife making class will produce a top grade blade today.

5 With computerized temperature controllers,salt pots,cryogenic treatments,high tech steel and materials,milling machines,you name it.....This is science.

6 One of the reasons that this art almost died out 50 years ago is that no one taught it as a science,

7 only as a skill.Practice a lot with a hammer only,but when designing plan with your head.

8 Maybe that's why Buck and Randall make millions and the rest of us make a bare living or less from knives.PLANNING!

just like the energizer bunny
(( I really think the Chicken came before the egg,,))

1 error,, comes with lack of practice
if you can't grind, chances are for the most part you can't make a ((reasonable)) knife, if you can't forge you can't make a knife by forging.

2 the students write down the info because they are getting a lot of ( someone else's ) experience real fast and for the money they want to be writing it down.

3 you say they could not use CPM S30V and some G-10 ?? I disagree if it could have been made then they would learn to use it back then as we do..

4 only if they learned how to use it.
do you believe that if you go to school for knife making you could make a knife? NOT my wife got a motorcycle permit once and never drove one and never did since, of course she didn't take her road test for the license. but she did have a permit to drive one. going to the school dose not give you skill it comes from inside.
skill is developed..

5 This is science only to make the job easier faster for just a few of us
but not necessary by a long shot..
who built and programs these things?

6 true to the word
modern custom knife making starting about 50 years ago

7 business men in the right places at the right times.,,, you or I could do the same with the right circumstances..make a good product, advertise to the hilt, and get your face out there.. Just my opinon