Knife designs: To copy or not to copy

Streetdog

Streetdog

Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
68
Hello everybody, I did a brief intro in the post I did about the ABS Bladesmithing class so I will just sum up. I'm a brand new maker and once I get back from my deployment I will be setting up my "shop". It will be more of a hobby/sideline business more than my way of life. I have about 8 years left in the mil before I can retire. Right now I'm just on here absorbing as much info as I can so any advice ya'll have I'm all ears.

Here is my question/concern. I have read in multiple threads that there aren't really many new or original knife designs anymore, it is mainly improving or tweaking existing designs. However, in other threads I have seen people get bombarded for "copy catting" designs. I do not want to be one of them. How do you use a design without stealing someone else’s? I mean if I see a design online and I trace it because I like it and make the knife with my own hands, is that wrong? Or is it selling it that’s wrong? Where is the line drawn and where does it go from being innocent to pissing people off? Because I'm pretty sure there is no faster way to get a bad name for yourself than stealing, even inadvertently. It seems more prudent to ask before and avoid than beg forgiveness later. So I beseech you learned knife making sages to enlighten me with your wisdom on how NOT to be a jackass.

Perhaps another way to phrase it would be is there something that makes a knife specifically one makers and that is what shouldn't be copied? I'm not really sure how else to phrase it. Hopefully you guys can decipher what I'm asking and help a new maker out. Thanks folks.

Streetdog AKA David
 
I think the devil is in the details. I've seen copies that were blatant copies. Down to the tiniest details. That in itself isn't so much the problem. What gets people in trouble is selling directly in competition to another maker's work or claiming an original design that is anything but.

Here's a suggestion. When looking for inspiration, look at books, knives you own, or the 'net and find what you like. The main thing to look for isn't a particular exact knife, but more a feel of a type of knife that get's you warm inside. When you find several of a style that gets your blood warming up, look for what makes them appeal to you. Blade shape, proportions, finishes, etc? From there, put away the books/'net/knives, and get out some paper and try drawing something that captures the feel. Invariably, there will be cues that you could probably pick out from things you've looked at, but it will also start to become your own in the process.

Most of us have looked at and handled thousands of knives from other makers and manufacturers, and we know what we like. So after a while, you don't have to look for any type of inspiration; you just draw out what's in your mind. Also, at least for me, as I'm making a knife, the blade profile or dimensions/proportions change from my original outline to better match what I'm seeing/feeling as I'm working the steel.

If you want to specifically reproduce a design, that's not so much of a big deal, just don't sell them. If you want to make a knife inspired by a particular design, give credit to where it's due and do your thing. Just make it your own in some way.

And also, thank you for your service, sir.

--nathan
 
It's impossible to patent or copyright things like a drop-point or bowie blade profile. They've been around for centuries. Go for it.
It is possible to patent specific mechanisms, like the lock on a folder, for instance.

It's also possible to make a career out of blatantly copying a well-known design as closely as possible and charge many times what the originals sold for. Whether or not a maker or buyer can sleep at night having done that or bought it, is up to them.
 
Hey folks, thanks for the replys. I really don't want to copy point for point someone elses work. If you do that where is the craftsmanship? I really wanted an idea of how some of the other makers, the real makers not amatures like me, look at this topic. Hopefully some other people will chime in and further widen the information base. Do either of you have any advice for a new maker? Thanks again.
 
Rather than making a direct copy of a knife, study it for awhile and look for improvements in its design and build them into the new knife.
 
Personally, I think you err by starting with the assumption that all knife designs have already been done. Starting off with a defeatist attitude is not likely to encourage creativity.

Instead, why don't you look at things with fresh eyes. Don't focus on other designs you like, focus on the problems you want to solve or other things that inspire you to make a knife.
 
Tryppyr, I'm not a defeatist, I'm a realist :) You have good advice; the problem is I'm not terribly creative on my own. I'm very good at taking a base idea and running with it but in the past I have always had to have a given starting point. I can alter existing things to work better for what I want but I can sit in front of a blank piece of paper for an hour and when I finally "draw" something it ends up being a close copy of something I like anyway. However, in the interest of learning to do things better I will defiantly give your advice a solid try. In the past I usually grab a blade I like from here, a handle from here and this or that from there and smash it all together into something I like.

I'm curious though, I have never seen a blade design that hasn't been done before. Or are you stating a difference between blade design such as a bowie, sheepsfoot, clip point or drop point and overall knife design?
 
Streetdog said:
I'm curious though, I have never seen a blade design that hasn't been done before. Or are you stating a difference between blade design such as a bowie, sheepsfoot, clip point or drop point and overall knife design?
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I think the root of your problem is you're starting from a desire to make a knife rather that trying to solve a problem. You're worrying about not being creative rather than giving yourself a reason to be creative.

Blank sheets of paper rarely inspire anyone to creativity. You have to get your inspiration somewhere else. One way is to consider a problem you want to solve. Do you need a better tool for whittling a stick into sharp points? Maybe you have a lot of cardboard boxes you want to cut into smaller pieces. Whatever it is, think of the problem and think about what kind of tool would make doing what you want to do easier.

Yes, it's entirely likely that the tool you come up with will look like something someone else (who solved the same problem) came up with. It's also possible you'll come up with something different. Either way, nobody can accuse you of ripping off anyone because you approached it like an engineer solving a problem rather than approaching it like a copycat stealing a design for no apparent reason other than you liked the design.

Some problems aren't purely functional. Maybe you see something around you that seems vaguely knifelike, and you run with it. One of my first knives was based on a leaf I found in my backyard. I liked the design because I though it looked like it would make a great medieval torture tool. Not the sort of problem most modern engineers need to solve, but one that my own twisted mind couldn't resist working on.

Anyway, the point is that when you think through it like an engineer rather than just someone trying to make a knife it gives you a totally different perspective on what you're doing. The best knife designs being copied today were once nothing more than an idea someone had about how to do something more efficiently or effectively.

- Greg
 
tryppyr said:
I think the root of your problem is you're starting from a desire to make a knife rather that trying to solve a problem.
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I haven't thought about it like that. I will have to give it a try. Good info, thank you I appreciate it.

tryppyr said:
Maybe you see something around you that seems vaguely knifelike, and you run with it.
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This I like especially. As I said I'm not very creative on my own, I have nearly 30 years of experience to know that, but I can modify stuff very well. I will have to keep it in mind and combine this approach with your earlier suggestion of solving a problem and see where it gets me. Thank you.
 
This topic comes up a lot. Here's my opinion as a musician, knifemaker, tripper of the light fantastic. There are only so many notes in music. There are only so many ways they can be arranged and still make sense. It is ALMOST impossible to be 100% original. The perfect knife, song,painting etc. exist in the eye of the beholder.
I was recently scolded by a very famous,established maker because I put a hole in the guard of one of my knives..hint...hint. He was very professional, down to earth and cool about it. I removed the pics from various sites and all is well, lesson learned. It was pure ignorance on my part I had no idea it was a trademark. Did I copy him ? Absolutely not, I just didn't know. I'm not convinced everything has been done, if so we are all fakes. I draw influence from everything. The hard part is eliminating what is useless.
 
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JBS has the main point. It isn't copying James Taylor to sing the word Handyman or play a C major chord. It is only copying if you sing all the words and use all his notes.

The same applies to making a knife. If you see a Nick Wheeler bowie you like, and you study his tutorials, then by all means making a knife the same way is a tribute to Nick, and he would be the first to say good job if it came out well. If you did the knife with every material and file work stroke the same, most would say it was a blatant copy.

What I do is print out a photo of any knife I see that I like something about ( I have hundreds of them). I drop these in a box by my chair in the TV room. During commercials, I peruse through them. I have a file folder on the top of the stack I stick the ones that speak to me the most. When I am ready to make a certain knife style, I may get out a few I like and look them over again. Then I draw my knife sketch. Maybe I'll use a handle feature, or the blade shape, or a hybrid of several features on several knives....the result is my knife, not theirs.
 
Thanks for the great advice folks. I will take all this stuff to heart and see where I end up with it.
 
When I first started, my mentor put me on to makers who seemed to fit with the style I wanted to make... Tai Goo, Daniel Winkler, Tim Lively, etc... I saw the work these guys where doing and was inspired. Just like when I started playing music, I emulated who I wanted to sound like. But the difference between a good improvisational musician and someone who plays "covers" is the ability to take what you learn and make it your own. Such is the difference between a maker of knives and a custom knife maker. So I used these great maker's ideas to stock my toolbox, so-to-speak... then began building my own style. One thing I will never do, is forget where I came from. I make it a point to give credit and personally thank those early role models, every chance I get.
 
Rick, thank you for the advice. That seems to be the running theme is adaptation. Well, I'm nothing if not adaptable. Semper Gumby. I think it will be good to get back to the states and just disappear in the garage for a few days/weeks and see what happens. I still need to get a good grasp of the basics. My last knife got interrupted by my non voluntary vacation. So thanks for the advice folks. Knife makers seem to be an amiable and helpful group.
 
Streetdog said:
Rick, thank you for the advice. That seems to be the running theme is adaptation. Well, I'm nothing if not adaptable. Semper Gumby. I think it will be good to get back to the states and just disappear in the garage for a few days/weeks and see what happens. I still need to get a good grasp of the basics. My last knife got interrupted by my non voluntary vacation. So thanks for the advice folks. Knife makers seem to be an amiable and helpful group.
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Take your steel and shape a handle profile that feels good in the hand, after that shape the blade to make it look right. You may find you are more creative than you thought!

Good luck with everything!
 
Great advice so far. Something that I find amazing is the angles of knives, it seems pretty obvious when you first look at a knife but if you study the dimensions and angles in the knives that really stand out you will most likely find they are more complex. I find it easiest to get the spine flow and the rest will work its self out. You don't need to copy others you need to be inspired by others

The Straight blocky knives are the obstacle you need to get past. We start out making that type of knife because we have a Bar of steel that it fits in.
 
Awesome advice guys, keep it coming. I will take every bit of info and advice I can get my hands on.
 
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