Knife for use with baton

J

Jimbo

Joined
Aug 10, 1999
Messages
546
I'm still trying to break my original Mora in use with a baton.. I realize that few people will have seen purpose in cutting down small trees with a knife, even to test use..
Some things occur to me, and I'd like people's opinions.
1. If you chop a machete into a tree, it'll often stick - at least that is my memory from when I used them. When I use a thin knife with a baton, slicing very deeply into large (8") trees, I don't have a problem with sticking. Is this due to the rocking motion of blade when cutting?
2. Has anyone done any tests with thick blades as opposed to thin blades? In my limited experience thin blades work far better - as they slice into the tree much more easily.
3. I have read on posts that large knives are often made of different steel than small ones to be more durable for chopping. From my limited experience with a leukko, chopping is much harder on an edge than using a baton. Comments?
4. It appears to me that a single beveled edge as in a Mora works better than a blade such as a Cold Steel Hudson bay or Red River where the blade thickness tapers to the edge then a bevel is honed on. This is very subjective given the differences of the knives, and I don't find the advantages of the single bevel to be great. Comments?
5. Given that very cheap knives seem to work well with a baton, what would be your design criteria for an outdoor knife that would be used extensively with a baton?
 
Jimbo,
Some pretty interesting questions. I've not compared thin vs thick during baton use. But I have used the baton on some pretty heavy knives with good success. This would include an Ontario Spec Plus Marine, a Fallkniven A1, a Becker Companion, and a Busse Badger Attack. I was usually happy with the results but I can't say they were more effective than Moras. But your results surprise me. I used my BA to cut through a log the size fo my thigh (this is where you will find dry wood in a rain storm) and I can't imagine tackling that with my Moras. But I reckon I will have to give it a try. It makes sense that a thin blade would slice better but I know my BA will take a lickin' and then some. I beat on it for several hours on one occasion and barely dulled it. The coating on the spine didn't even mar. And I was removing some pretty good chunks.

An interesting knife to try this on might be a Helle. Mine has a little broader spine than a cheap mora and it has a laminated blade. It's a tough-looking Norwegian blade. Might be just the ticket. Maybe even a Grohmann #1 might work well for this too. It's an intersting approach.

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Hoodoo

Why dost thou whet thy knife so earnestly?

The Merchant of Venice, Act IV. Scene I.

[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 09-04-2000).]
 
Hi Hoodoo:

I'm talking about cutting down living trees - specifically alder. We have a need to do a lot of clearing up here so cutting down living trees is not considered a particularly evil thing to do.
The reason for selecting living red alders is that the way they grow produces a lot of trees of similar size and characteristics. So I can compare how different knives work out. The reason for cutting wood of a size impractical for most uses was initially to stress a Mora. It was later that I began to wonder why a 1" wide blade buried most of its length 3" into wood wasn't sticking. For sure I cut a wide notch just as with using an axe, so perhaps that is much of the answer.
I find that dead wood varies a great deal. I try out edge holding by whittling fuzzy sticks from lower dead spruce branches (my dry wood), and find a tremendous variation in hardness even between branches from the same tree.
A Helle Viking blade is on my wishlist! I was certainly impressed with the Brusletto knife I got for my grand-daughter.
 
All we are talking about is using a mallet. The term baton is often used for some reason or other. But basically you find a nice piece of hardwood and make yourself a club. If the wood is a little soft, you can harden it up a bit by 'cooking' it over a fire (but don't catch it on fire). You're just shrinking up the cells in the wood and making it tougher.

Now you use the 'baton' to hammer on the spine of the knife to make deep cuts in wood. This is very effective and you can cut through some pretty good size wood quickly with the right setup. I've always thought a 'baton' knife should have at least 3/16" spine and no false edge. But apparently Jimbo has had luck with his method using thin bladed Moras.

I think Jimbo's method is similar to that of Mors Kochanski, who favors a scandinavian-finnish style blade with a 2.5-3mm spine (this is less than 1/8" thick).
I became skeptical of Kochanski when he said "As a test of strength, a good knife should not break when driven four centimetres into a standing tree at right angles to the grain, and the handle bears your weight as you stand on it."

That has to be one heck of a knife if it can have a spine less than 1/8" and take that kind of abuse. Now I've never tried this with my Moras but I suppose it's possible...

Anyone ever give their thin knife the "Kochanski" test? I'm sure my Busse Badger Attack would easily handle my weight but this is no slim little slicer with a spine of 5/16.



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Hoodoo

Why dost thou whet thy knife so earnestly?

The Merchant of Venice, Act IV. Scene I.
 
I think that's one of those 'is it steel?' tests. I don't know about you, but I don't weigh enough to shear 1/8" steel. Remember, you aren't standing far out on the handle, you stand right against the tree. There is fairly little torque applied to the blade. Most of your weight is attempting to shear the blade, which is a pretty hard thing to do.

Of course, that is, if what he's describing is what I think he's describing. I'd need more info on exactly what he means by that to say for certain.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Thanks for putting up the explanation of the use of a baton, Hoodoo!
As far as Mors' test for knife strength goes forget the Moras. The test does say standing on the handle and there's just no way that stick tang wouldn't bend with sideways pressure. I am amazed that so far I haven't managed to mangle and bend with force exerted in line with the edge.
My (first) main concern for use of a baton was for cutting poles for shelters, fire reflectors, and possibly a stretcher. Around here alder is common and would be quite adequate for the above uses in 3" or less diameter - depends on the type of alder. Cutting larger green wood is pretty well a needless activity and was done just to test the knife. It is a lot easier than I would ever have believed - and it's a good stunt to impress friends - but still needless.
Around here we don't have a great need to cut into dead standing timber to get to dry heartwood - basically because in the coastal rainforest there isn't a whole lot of dead standing timber. and what there is - is pretty large stuff. One is better served by the dead lower branches of spruce trees, and these are best collected by just hanging on and breaking, and then smashing. sure you have to split these but they rarely go that large.
So basically much of what I have done in studying baton use has little practical application - I've just been testing some knives to get some impressions of what they are capable of. I have split a bunch of very knotty wood which would have been extremely difficult to split with a large chopping knife. It was fascinating to see the Mora blade go into serpentine curves around the knots and surprising to see it survive - but again it would have been easier to get dry wood from other sources - and splitting isn't the same as chopping into wood.
All in all though it has been a lot of fun and very informative. I do need my exercise too.
One word of caution for any going out to try knives and batons for dropping trees. BEWARE of leaning trees, especially alders. Without proper side cuts these have a tendency to barber chair or split up the middle as they fall. As they split the piece closest to you flies out with lethal force, and you are in exactly the right position.. Even small trees are very dangerous.
 
Jimbo, which Mora(s) are you using?

------------------
Hoodoo

Why dost thou whet thy knife so earnestly?

The Merchant of Venice, Act IV. Scene I.
 
Hi Hoodoo:

I have a sack of the Moras, quite a few 6" Frost's, and every size of red handled Erikssons. I also have synthetic handled in both plastic and rubber. I'll be putting up a page about the synthetic handled soon - but basically they're the same blades. In addition I have a 6 3/4" blade with stub tang Erikkson and a leukko blade as shown here: http://www.ragweedforge.com/cb.jpg
as well as on my pages.
Strangely all my wooden handled models have carbon blades - not one laminated.
Having a whole bunch has allowed me to try various things with knives such as fill handle with molten metal to secure more rigidly, and then compare to stock.
I'll be putting up a page on the Cold Steel Hudson Bay model soon. This is significantly different from the Red River.
 
My red handled Mora is laminated. Very sharp.

I sliced a tomato and when I turned around the knife was already stained with what appeared to be rust. Hmmmm...I guess there are some advantages to stainless.

I finally got around to trying it. I had waited to seal the hole around the tang. I used some JB Weld. So far so good, but a very thin epoxy that seeped in better would be nice.
 
Donald, did this staining limit the utility of the blade? I often "prestain" my carbon knives by cuting tomatoes or onions. I kinda like the patina it gives them. Of course, I don't let it become rust.
 
All carbon knives will stain pretty drasically with tomatoes. So far I haven't found anything in the bush which does that kind of job on them. I find that green buffing compound on a piece of supported cardboard polishes and protects since it contains wax. It'll also put an awesome edge on the knife.
The synthetic handled knives are best for the kitchen, though the wooden handled versions work much better than you'd expect if you burn the paint off the handles and finish with linseed oil - not slippery at all. With wooden handled knives the hole in the handle must be sealed unless you want to try your resistance to food poisoning.
 
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