Knife Handles Becoming Better Than the Blades

[Confederate]

Perhaps it's always been the case, but as more knife companies adopt 420j2, AUS 4 and other junk steels for blades, it's ironic to think how nice the handles are but how junky the blades. Are we headed to disposable blades or disposable knives? Will knife companies begin making replacable blades once people find out just how soft and crappy they are? Or might 3rd party makers arise and produce quality blades that can replace the junk that CRKT and Gerber are producing?

What will the next decade hold? Better blades? Free 3-packs of replacable junk blades? Or will there be a technological breakthrough where we'll get excellent cheap blades that can be mass produced without grinding, polishing, or heat treating?

 

[senoBDEC]

Personally... I'd say instead of using 420J2 and worse steels... why not just use simple carbon tool steels instead - probably as easy to machine, then you just blue the blade and you're done....

Answer: because they can get away with it. And the majority of people hate taking care of things.

 

[gud4u]

We're just coming full circle - back to the famous 'surgical stainless'.

 

[DGG]

Perhaps it's always been the case, but as more knife companies adopt 420j2, AUS 4 and other junk steels for blades, it's ironic to think how nice the handles are but how junky the blades. Are we headed to disposable blades or disposable knives? Will knife companies begin making replacable blades once people find out just how soft and crappy they are? Or might 3rd party makers arise and produce quality blades that can replace the junk that CRKT and Gerber are producing?

What will the next decade hold? Better blades? Free 3-packs of replacable junk blades? Or will there be a technological breakthrough where we'll get excellent cheap blades that can be mass produced without grinding, polishing, or heat treating?

It is not so much that they are junky blades. They are somewhat stainless and the downside is that they don't have the best edge holding ability resulting in having to resharpen them more often. They will definately cut well when sharp and are okay for the casual user who only uses his knife once a week to open mail or some other light duty work. Here is some steel info intended for the knife maker that may be of some interest.

http://www.ajh-knives.com/metals.html

If most knife owners were knowledgeable they would find they could buy a knife with better steel, 440-C, 154CM, s30v, for not much more than they are paying for the lower end steels that can't reach the higher Rockwell hardness values. Just my humble opinion.

 

[David Schott]

I think this has to do with mass consumers. The average knife owner does not want to care for a blade, does not want to sharpen it, and just wants to use it. There are a ton of advantages to carbon steel but fact of the matter is that if a users doesnt want to take care of a carbon blade, they wont, and will then bash the blade saying the steel "Rusts SOOOO easy" when in reality it is them putting a wet blade into a leather sheath, then leaving it there overnight.

Its a matter of you get what you pay for. There are plenty of quality knives both production and custom that have great steel, great handles, and great performance....but you wont get all those things unless youre willing to pay for them.

I think its buyer knowledge and buyer's looking at pricepoint before quality that drives this...

My answer would be: If you dont want soft steeled knives, dont buy knives with low quality steel. Buy a knife based on how its steel matches your intended use and you will be far happier. there will always be companies willing to make cheap, soft knives as long as consumers keep buying them.

 

[gordonk]

Might be just the mass market they are going to - it is still better than what most probably have anyway For the person who is used to spending only a few bucks for knife that they may only use once in a blue moon, twenty or thirty is going to be a big jump. These are also the ones who think their blades have the forever edge - just think - when they "move up", that edge will last longer No, it doesn't bode well for us knifeknutz who do take the time to research, test, etc, but it is perhaps a good way to start someone in the right direction, affordably. I know I started that way - my tastes changed as I learned more. A few of my co-workers/friends have purchased Byrds and Ka-Bar/Doziers on my recommendation (they run about $40 CDN, up here) and are very pleasantly surprised at what they get for the money. It's actually more funny in one sense, 'cause they can't get over how sharp they are Makes you wonder what they were cuttin' with before

- gord

 

[kel_aa]

If you dont want soft steeled knives, dont buy knives with low quality steel.

It has nothing to do with quality, at least as far as the discussion has gone. Is aluminum of less quality than steel? We build aircraft frames out of aluminum and skyscrapers out of steel.

You can only say you got it backwards if you build a blade out of aluminum and a handle out of 1095. Steels are improperly chosen for the blade specifications and intended use, and concurrently their potential are not realized through the heat treatment, and all this is overshadowed by the marketing, a long established brandname, or simply price for those without as much knowledge or care.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... there will always be companies willing to make cheap, soft knives as long as consumers keep buying them.

There are lots of very well respected blades of similar and even lower hardness, Randall, Fisk, Goddard and Boye for example. If you will label AUS-4A as junk just because it is soft and weak then the same label should be applied to the knives from the aforementioned makers. It also isn't the case that the very low alloy steels that many ABS guys use are actually expensive, many of them will in fact use recycled materials.

-Cliff

 

[David Schott]

It has nothing to do with quality, at least as far as the discussion has gone. Is aluminum of less quality than steel? We build aircraft frames out of aluminum and skyscrapers out of steel.

You can only say you got it backwards if you build a blade out of aluminum and a handle out of 1095. Steels are improperly chosen for the blade specifications and intended use, and concurrently their potential are not realized through the heat treatment, and all this is overshadowed by the marketing, a long established brandname, or simply price for those without as much knowledge or care.

My bad. That should read : if you dont want low quality knives, dont buy knives with low quality manufacturing.

And yes, in knives, aluminum is a low quality blade steel. Thats not saying aluminum isnt a high quality material, but for blades, it is not.

 

[David Schott]

There are lots of very well respected blades of similar and even lower hardness, Randall, Fisk, Goddard and Boye for example. If you will label AUS-4A as junk just because it is soft and weak then the same label should be applied to the knives from the aforementioned makers. It also isn't the case that the very low alloy steels that many ABS guys use are actually expensive, many of them will in fact use recycled materials.

-Cliff

I know there are ranges or hardness to toughness, and steels with lower RC but crazy properties otherwise. i dont think, however, we are talking about those exceptions. I think the post was about low quality blades on mass produced consumer knives. I doubt the poster was comparing a 25$ bin knife to a Fisk bowie made with exacting standards in heat treating by one of the 125 mastersmiths in the world

Steel is only a minor factor in blade price. You can get 1095 for a couple bucks a foot and on a high end knife, even the most expensive alloys dont affect the overall price very much.

I think theres much, much more to everything. Its what you do WITH the steel that matters, not as much the steel itself. Again, you tend to get what you pay for and there arent very many exceptions to that rule.

Am I missing the point of the post? i thought it was that mass produced knives more and more are using what are generally considered to be lesser blade steels while at the same time making their handles much more comfortable....the answer from how I see it is that its far easier to mass produce a molded quality handle than mass producing the part of the knife which must be made with exacting specifications and steps if done right. If a handle is a few thousandths off, its not much of a deal...if the HT on a blade is off, its directly translated into the performance of the blade.

Everything must be factored, and if you want all those factors to be considered with exacting standards, you need to be willing to pay for those extra steps. The type of knives we seem to be describing here are made en masse and consumer purchases will continue to drive those standards down until consumers are not willing to pay for a given product. Companies naturally do what they can get away with and still make a profit...some have better ethics than others when they do it...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I doubt the poster was comparing a 25$ bin knife to a Fisk bowie made with exacting standards in heat treating by one of the 125 mastersmiths in the world

As an aside, there are far more than 125 mastersmiths, the US isn't the world. But the point remains that the steel in 52 HRC steel knife made by Fisk irregardless of how it hardened is far softer than a 55/57 HRC AUS-4A knife and it isn't like those low alloy carbon steels have high wear resistance.

You can't critize CRK&T for using junk because their steels are soft and have low abrasion resistance and not apply the same labels to custom makers doing the same and even going further. You can just look up the materials data for those steels, they are all known alloys, here it is for 1095 :

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graphStrength.jpg

Look at the yield point for drawing to 800 F, that is about 50 HRC, you can interpolate 52 from the data given, it isn't much higher. Yes there are different ways to get to the same HRC points but the changes are generally not of that order and on more complex steels.

A lot of the mythology of heat treating in the knife industry, especially by forging has been debunked on SwordForums by Cashen and others. It isn't like the guys who heat treated the steel for industry don't know what they are doing and I would really like to see data that 5160 at 56 HRC is more wear resistant than AUS-4A at 55/57 HRC.

i thought it was that mass produced knives more and more are using what are generally considered to be lesser blade steels ...

Yes and I think this is misrepresenting the steel or at least being very unfair to CRK&T and others because such criteria are not being applied uniformly. If it ok for Fisk and others to leave their blades soft because they like the toughness and way they sharpen then you can't really condemn CRK&T for doing the exact same thing.

-Cliff

 

[David Schott]

Yes and I think this is misrepresenting the steel or at least being very unfair to CRK&T and others because such criteria are not being applied uniformly. If it ok for Fisk and others to leave their blades soft because they like the toughness and way they sharpen then you can't really condemn CRK&T for doing the exact same thing.

-Cliff

I think the difference is that Fisk is purposefully doing it based on the intended use of the knife. Theres no need for a CRK&T folder to be as soft/tough as a cutting competiton bowie. Are they purposefully lowering the RC to appease the desires of consumers? This post is evidence that they are not if customers aren't happy. i dont see people complaining about Fisks and custom knives because those knives for the most part are made for their intended use and not stamped out in a big long line.

I think this is 90% the consumer's fault. There are good knives out there, if you inform yourself of the kind of knife you need. perhaps the cross section frequenting this forum is a minority and the other 99% of buyers are happy....who knows.

And yes, I may be misinformed, but the ABS site only lists 102 ABS Mastermsiths. Worldwide. Maybe they are missing some...

 

[kel_aa]

Cliff, help me read the graph?

The area underneath the graph is the work done or energy required to cause the deformation (either elastic or inelastic), force*distance, right? The area of curve (up to yield point) of 1095 tempered at 800 isn't much greater than that tempered at 300, and is less than that tempered at 350 or 400. So is the only advantage the reduced failures due to fracture (crack propagation)?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I think the difference is that Fisk is purposefully doing it based on the intended use of the knife.

So are CRK&T, they state this clearly on their website and in the promotional material. The lower carbon stainless blades are for those people who want a high corrosion resistance and toughness and are easy to grind as a lot of people have trouble sharpening the harder and high wear resistant alloys. They do offer other steels if their customers want a harder and more wear resistant steels they can choose them.

Theres no need for a CRK&T folder to be as soft/tough as a cutting competiton bowie.

Fisk's doesn't just use that for a competion bowie, it is how he hardens personal use knives and he notes ease of sharpening, ability to take a coarse edge, and durablity as reasons for doing so and notes cuttings meats and similar as common tasks which is a hunting class use. Not all of Randall's knives are huge choppers either, some of them are very small. There are also a lot of knifemakers making "rustic" knives which are of similar hardness.

I may be misinformed, but the ABS site only lists 102 ABS Mastermsiths. Worldwide. Maybe they are missing some...

Yeah, all the mastersmiths not in the ABS. The American Bladesmithing Society isn't the totality of knifemakers who forge, there are other countries.

So is the only advantage the reduced failures due to fracture (crack propagation)?

The area under the curve at 350 is larger than 800 thus it takes more work to break the harder blade. The onset of plastic deformation is also almost three times higher so the blade is much more flexible. The only advantage (from a bending perspective) of drawing the blade to that high a temperature is that it will bend like taffy and thus go to a huge angle before it shears and breaks often happen at an angle vs a load when using a knife because after a certain angle it becomes useless as a prybar because you either can't exert a load or it is rather obvious the knife isn't stiff enough. It will also have a much larger charpy impact toughness and equal torsional toughness as a blade drawn to maximal strength.

-Cliff

 

[David Schott]

I was under the impression that the MS tag and name were official titles given to those who had passed the requirements and specifications required by the ABS of those who wish to hold that title. Even foreign smiths who want a MS stamp need to pass those tests and present blades for review, etc. You dont just look at a maker's work and decide they are a mastersmith...thats why they have requirements. If it were that easy, everyone would call themself a mastersmith

 

[David Schott]

Sorry didnt mean to derail the thread with MS factoids.

Back to the subject at hand....if indeed there is a reason for this company to mass produce blades in this range of RC, then what is the problem? is the problem uninformed users who don't know or want to maintain a knife? Or is it CRK&T's problem for providing en masse blades that have a very specific heat treating which might not be favored by the majority of users? Either way, if they inform the customer, its the customer's fault which brings us back to the fact that knife owners need to step up to the plate and be willing to service a knife they buy, or they need to assume responsibility and purchase knives that they will have to service less.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Even foreign smiths who want a MS stamp need to pass those tests and present blades for review, etc.

If they wanted to be recognized officially by the ABS yes, however this doesn't mean without doing so they would not be a mastersmith. For example my family is full of master carpenters, they have gone to Iceland and Japan among other places teaching R2000 construction methods. In doing so they have met many local master carpenters. Some trades will accept other bodies certification, some do not but none would argue that they should be the governing body outside of their locality.

If it were that easy, everyone would call themself a mastersmith

Master and journeyman are general trade labels, they are given by many governing bodies. In general they also recognize experience without formal training. Locally for example you can become certified as a master carpenter without extensive testing if you have worked as a carpenter under and with certified carpenters for an extended period of time.

Or is it CRK&T's problem for providing en masse blades that have a very specific heat treating which might not be favored by the majority of users?

It isn't a specific heat treating as much as a limitation of the steel. The hardness is limited by the carbon content. CRK&T are running fairly standard hardness levels for their steels. They could likely improve on them 1-3 points by oil+cold but so could almost everyone else.

Either way, if they inform the customer ...

Ref :

http://www.crkt.com/steelfct.html

Each knife page also describes the steel and why they use it, for example :

http://www.crkt.com/m16edcz.html

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

As for the sharpening aspect, many of us on here have trouble sharpening softer steels and steels that blurr a lot. I find my list of steels in the order of the most enjoyable to sharpen as for stainless folders/fixed blades:

Benchmade 440C> SOG/Camillus AUS8> Spyderco VG10 > Spyderco S30V> Kershaw/Cold Steel AUS8>>> Benchmade ATS-34/ SAK stainless> ... things like CRKT420J, Gerber surgicals that compete for the last place. But generally I wouldn't try to get the last ones to the same sharpness as the first ones.

Whether the steels in the CRKT and Gerber's in question at the hardness they are at are easier to sharpen "on the go" with improvised objects, I don't think that is too strong an advantage.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

As for the sharpening aspect, many of us on here have trouble sharpening softer steels and steels that blurr a lot.

I personally don't find them easy to sharpen either, the easiest steels I have to sharpen are 65/66 HRC. However what CRK&T mean by easy to sharpen is basically easy to grind. The vast majority of people sharpening knives are not concerned about burr removal as they have problems just getting there so it is a grinding issue. Note the extremely common use of steels which intentionally create a burred edge and all the pull through gadgets. Once you switch to using stones and proper use of micro-bevels grindability isn't much of a problem and burr formation is generally the time consuming part of the process if you want a very high sharpness and especially edge retention.

-Cliff

 

[Confederate]

There are lots of very well respected blades of similar and even lower hardness, Randall, Fisk, Goddard and Boye for example. If you will label AUS-4A as junk just because it is soft and weak then the same label should be applied to the knives from the aforementioned makers.

That's the way it's becoming for many of them, I fear. It's not that I'm a steel snob by any means, it's just that I don't think there is a legitimate reason to make a blade out of 420j2 unless one is going to use it around salt water.

Steel is not all that expensive; however, knives are. Knife enthusiasts routinely turn their noses up at Chinese knives, but I don't think a Chinese blade in a junk knife can be substantially inferior to a blade made from 420j2 or even AUS-4. Just because a knife is made by Randall, CRKT, Gerber, etc., no longer guarantees your blade is going to be worth a damn. And that's a shame. And it's worse if someone buys a knife based on a manufacturer's reputation and then ends up with something like the Gerber Paraframe, which is about as horrible as a knife can get cutting wise.

Two years ago, 420j2 was used mostly as liner material. No one seriously considered putting an edge to it and sticking it an otherwise decent setup.

As I get older, I put things more in the terms of food. It's like going to a restaurant you've always loved for their golden fried hand battered onion rings; then one day you come in and find out some imbecile has decided to go with frozen onion rings. But the restaurant owners don't care. People order the onion rings whether they're hand battered or frozen. Oh, and you remember all those great malts restaurants used to serve? (They'd bring the extra out in a mixer?) Only a very few places have those any more because most places discovered people will have the all-you-can-drink Coke.

Well, gotta go. I'm getting hungry all of a sudden. (Why does writing on a knife board make me hungry all the time?) Oh, well....

Beer battered onion rings.
Who wants frozen?