Knife Identification Help WWII USN

W

wcaseyb

Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Messages
17
Can someone help me identify/date this knife? Most of the Ka Bars I have seen have different markings than this one. There is no stamp on the blade guard and it only has the U.S.N stamp on one side and the Camillus, NY mark on the other side. No MK2/Mark 2 stamp on it and no scabbard.

Also, would it be fairly easy to but a pommel on it somehow? Thanks.

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Looks like an example of one of Camillus's early MKII's. The image of the back end of the knife seems to show where the end of the tang was finished in a round stub. These were threaded and the pommel was counterbored to except an attachment nut. What you seem to have is why Camillus changed the attachment method to keeping the tang rectangular and cutting a slot in the pommel. They attached the pommel to the tang with a cross pin. This method was eventually adapted by the other contractors for this knife before the end of the War and ended up becoming part of the knifes official specification.
There would be a few ways to rebuild the knife. IMHO I'd remove the leather from the tang and add some steel to the end of it to get it to the original length, grind and file the weld down to the original dimensions. I doubt you'd have much luck finding an original pommel and nut for this knife, and given the tip damage I'd not be too inspired to pursue trying to put back in the original configuration. You might see that differently thou. You can sometimes find the right type of pommel on Ebay. Just be sure before you buy that it has the dimensions you want. Also with the dimensions you could make it from scratch if your inclined that way.
What may be easiest is to talk to the guys here from KA-BAR and see if they'll sell you a replacement pommel for their 1217.
 
That's great, thank you for the information. So it is an early version KA-BAR 1217, possibly around 1940? I would like to put a pommel on it somehow for sure though, but like you said, it wouldn't make financial sense to spend a ton on it with the tip damage.

If one of the KA-BAR guys sees this and could send me what I needed that would be ideal. I'll also search ebay. Could I most likely put it on with basic hand tools I have?
 
February 1943 -50k knives -

Like sactroop said, these had pommels that screwed on and then backed up with a slot nut. These knives had 2 weaknesses - split nuts and pommels unscrewing or the tang breaking off right where yours did - at the last thread of the threaded part of the tang.
 
Thanks for the information. I didn't realize the tang was broken off. Would it even be possible to put a replacement pommel on it in this condition for someone who isn't an expert?
 
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Current edition replacement pommels and pins (and leather washer kits, not needed here) are available from Kabar customer service.

If I had that knife, being not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, I would
0- gently remove an inch or so of the washers
1- weld a small piece of 1/8" mild steel rod onto the broken tang (protecting the remaining washers from the welding arc),
2- cut out a new pommel out of 3/8" mild steel,
3- drill a 1/8" hole in the new pommel,
4- cut the rod that stuck out to about 1/8" proud
5- replace the washers and put the pommel on the tang,
6- clamp the blade in a vise (with some leather pieces to protect the blade)
7- peen the proud tang tight
8- grind the peened tang a bit to smooth it out.

You now have a refurbished "almost version 2" Camilus 1219C2 - The first change order by the Navy/Marine ordnance folks was eliminate the screw pommel/split nut and peen the pommel tight onto the round tang.

The other, less time consuming fix would be
0- order replacement pommel and pin from Kabar customer service
1- find a friend/relative/enemy to weld a small piece of 1/8" mild steel to the tang where the original pommel broke off
2- file the added piece to fit the slot of the replacement pommel
3- drill a hole in the added tang segment to match the pin hole in the replacement pommel
4- put the pommel on the modified tang and slide the pin into the pommel pin hole, and through your hole in the tang until it bottoms out
5- cut off any excess pin, peen it over gently and smooth it out

You now have a current Kabar 1217 pommel assembly on a WW2 Camillus 1219C2

Either way you have a unique, usable sharp, pointy object. :D:D
 
Wow zzy!! That would be a lot of work!! I would just give that damaged knife away and buy a nice example if I wanted one of those. (By the way I do own a near mint-mint screw-pommel version) Of course I look at them from a collector view, not a user view. The pictured one looks like what we would end up with when kids. We'd collect old bottles along the road and turn them in for the deposit, take the money and bicycle two towns away to an Army-Navy store and buy a near mint MK2 for $2.00-$2.50 from a big barrel of them. We'd take the knife to our camp in the woods and throw it at trees until it broke or got lost. Might take a week or three before we'd break or lose it and then we'd repeat the process. Must have gone through a dozen a year for a couple of years.
 
Hey, gunsil, like I said, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. :D:D

I have a Robeson-Shuredge USN MK2 that looks just like th OP's, only missing the leather disks, sitting in a box on a shelf in the shop waiting for rehab, as well as other Kabars and a bunch of Westerns. I guess I'm just easily entertained and like a challenge. It keeps me off the streets at night. :D

I have a couple of prime split nut Camilluses/Camilli (Hhmm? What is the word for more than 1 Camillus?). I also have one that is missing just the split nut. I'm still working on making a replacement split nut that fits. Nothing off the shelf seems to work just right for me.
 
Gunsil, how long did it take you kids to break a 225Q knife? I've been looking for a real world destruction test on that old knife for a long time.:D
 
I like these (what should I do with it) threads. It's interesting to see everyone's personal take on it. Zzy, gave you some good approaches to use. I never considered putting a peened pommel on a Camillus 1219C2 since they didn't do that originally, but then again you could. I'd recommend practicing the peening on some scrap before doing it on the knife. It's a little bit of an art getting good results by hand with that. KA-BAR can get a solid reliable connection with a blind pin using their equipment. If I was putting a knife back together I'd modify, (drill thru), the pommel and use a thru pin peened on both ends. It's both easier to do at home and get a solid connection that won't slip out over time.
I kind of like the idea of doctoring a broken down old war horse and putting him back to work. A labor of love, and not usually the simplest thing.
 
That's great information. I definitely don't think I am up for the task of doing all of those steps. Perhaps I will put it up on Ebay and get it to someone who would be able and want to get this old work horse back to work.
 
sac troop said:
Gunsil, how long did it take you kids to break a 225Q knife? I've been looking for a real world destruction test on that old knife for a long time.:D
Click to expand...

I never tried a 225Q, all we saw at that army-navy store were the MK2s. Of course we also bought .303 Enfield rifles for $7.00 and Carcano carbines for $5.00. We were a bunch of well armed 12-15 year olds. Was too expensive for us poorer kids to shoot the Enfields and Carcanos though even at surplus ammo prices so we mostly shot our .22s. We got a penny apiece for nightcrawlers at the local sports shop and .22s were 50 cents a box of fifty so we basically traded worms for .22s at an even exchange. Could catch 300-400 worms a night in the late spring hunting them with flashlights on the school field and we'd get a couple thousand rounds until the ground got dry or we flooded the sports shop with all they could use.

By the way, later Camillus MK2s did have pinned on pommels, and the pin went all the way through. The screw pommel versions were early and phased out rapidly.
 
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