Knife laws and actual enforcement.

B

bakergh

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Nov 9, 2012
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So regardless of your state laws my experience has been that the police that I have ran into aren't over-zealous to confiscate or press charges relating to knifes or guns. I live in Charlotte, NC and I've never had a negative experience with the police force here.

On one occasion I was carrying my Benchmade 51 clipped to my pocket and I was out with coworkers when one of them starting acting stupidly and long story short we got the cops called on us. We were walking back to our office from a local bar at the time and the officers politely asked for our id's but they didn't give us pat downs or anything. My knife was clearly visible in my pocket and I immediately felt extremely uncomfortable. I didn't want to lose one of my favorite (and most expensive) knives but I also didn't want to get patted down and have it discovered that way. So I told the officer closest to me something along these lines of "I have a 4-1/2" butterfly knife in my right pocket is that going to get me in trouble?". He looked at the clearly visible knife protruding from my pocket with an amused expression and responded "Just leave it where it's at and there's nothing to worry about". I work with a bunch of software engineers and we didn't exactly look like the type of group that was going to get into a gang fight so that may have had an influence on it, but I think that for the most part the police aren't going to give themselves more paperwork just for kicks especially if the knife wasn't the reason they were called in the first place. I asked the officer if the knife was illegal and he responded that if I didn't use it in a crime I shouldn't have a problem. While that didn't answer my question a google search did later on. I found that while it would have been questionable in other parts of the state, I was definitely carrying a knife with a blade length of over 3.5 inches, which is the limit according to Charlotte municipal code.

My edc now is a ZDP Dragonfly 2 which is definitely within the legal limits but I will admit that I still occasionally carry the BM 51, if for no other reason than I feel like if I don't use it maliciously I won't have anything to worry about. So what is your take? Did I just get lucky or is this a common experience? What have your experiences been?
 
Stay out of New York City. Maybe with the new mayor and police commissioner, that will change. They have been busting people on technicalities like those. Professional police won't use knife charges unless they have some other serious violations to get under control.
 
I had my Benchmade Bedlam when patted down, legal length here is 3.5 inches, he didn't care at all. I also got pulled over on my motorcycle once and had my H&K epidemic on me, when I pulled my wallet out of my pocket I slipped the knife deeper into my pocket.
 
I love the legal forums, I work in law enforcement and the skewed views that most people have are hilarious. It seems I have stumbled onto the only reasonable post on blade forums. I am not an expert on North Carolina laws, or even American laws for that matter...but police are pretty muh the same everywhere.

If you are reasonable, they are reasonable. I have dealt with people that were actively carrying knives. If I notice, or they tell me it is usually no big deal (unless it is completely illegal). I take Officer Safety very seriously, and appreciate the honesty when I get it.

On the otherhand, when you are dealing with some S-rat and you come across a weapon that he lied about...then I get to see what else he's got going on, drugs, probation/conditions, etc...

To the OP, keep on being reasonable brother.
 
Amen, K1ssthecook -- former officer here in the US -- polite replies and a bit of courtesy is always a good policy. Most of the problems that we incurred was related to consumption of too much "liquid leadership" -- the only knife that we were concerned with were switchblades & concealed blades that were not disclosed.
 
When I've been doing case law reviews of knife-related charges, 99% of the time I had almost no sympathy for the defendant as a person, because they invariable were doing something illegal besides the knife. Over half were engaged in an act of violence that brought them to law enforcement's attention. In fact the one case I can recall off the top of my head where the encounter was purely accidental (misidentification of a robbery suspect) the charges were dismissed immediately, without trial.

The only exception I know is New York City, and that's primarily because it is only location I know of in the US were open carry of any size knife is illegal. Because open carry is the crime, police begin encounters purely on chance site of an item in the high population density environment. You literally can break the law by standing there minding your own business doing nothing at all with an item that nobody would normally think was dangerous. Not even Canada is that bad.
 
My own personal experiences are unique in this situation. Never been subjected to a pat down, but the one issue I've had that involved the police and my knife involved an incident at the local trailer park where the sheriff is also the manager. Maybe that's a conflict of interest, I don't know.

Anyway there was one trailer that was condemned due to the sheer amount of damage the previous tenants had committed to it, and the water had to be shut off from underneath before it could be demolished. The whole outside was lined with corrugated sheet metal, and the opening was extremely tiny and there was no way to get in with my Becker riding my belt. So I pulled the whole thing off my belt, said "here, hold this" and handed over to the sheriff while I crawled underneath to get to the water pit. No issues, no comments, just compliance on his part.

I really need to start collecting the business cards of the police I have dealings with. When you've got a wallet full of the business cards of police who don't care what kind of knife you're carrying, it's a little harder for people to give you static about it.
 
On a different (much earlier) occasion I was shooting clays with some friends from high school at a secluded location on top of a hill we thought wasn't in city limits (turns out it was). Just a few minutes before packing up to leave a police cruiser comes rolling up to the base of the hill (this was all off road). We weren't dumb so we unloaded our guns opened the breeches and put them on top of their cases. He had his shotgun drawn (I don't blame him) as he walked up the hill but when he got up and saw how we had everything laid out he rested his gun on his shoulder, pointing up, and almost apologetically said "I hate to ruin your fun boys but there are some people complaining about the noise". We explained that we were just about to leave and he said he never likes to break up a group "just having fun". We even asked him if he wanted to take a crack at a few clays. He politely declined. Maybe it's just that folks are nicer in the south.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Stay out of New York City...
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You won't have to worry about me roaming the streets of New York anytime soon. Staying out of New York is something that comes pretty easy to most of us. I don't think New Yorkers realize how much of the nation isn't in New York. Or maybe they do because it seems like I see more New York license plates on NC roads every day that goes by.
(I'm kidding BTW all the people from New York (Both NYC and Upstate) I know are awesome people).
 
Here's a thread from a little while back of a guy who was arrested for carrying a knife. He wasn't committing any crime at the time- http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...egal-Knife-CHL-Handgun-Jail-Charges-Test-Case The guy was in a room with twelve cops, two cops believed that the guy had not broken any law, but the other ten believed that he had broken the law. The guy was arrested and taken to jail. The guy fought the charges and they were later dropped.

Every cop is different. Every cop is an individual human being with their own personality. Cops don't always know every detail of the law, and they don't always agree on the law or how to deal with the public. Some may let you slide, and some might arrest you. It's impossible for anyone to predict what any given cop will do at any given time.

I certainly hope that no one here is suggesting that people should feel free to ignore their local knife laws because "Cops are cool and won't arrest you". You might get lucky once, or twice, or a hundred times, but there's no guarantee of that. It only takes one violation of the law, and one cop who decides that you should be arrested for violating the law, for you to find yourself under arrest and on your way through the criminal justice system, with all the troubles that follow- going to jail, possibly losing your job, possibly going broke paying lawyer fees, court costs, fines, probation fees, etc, etc. You could spend years on probation (not as easy as you might think), you could wind up with a criminal record that could prevent you from getting a job, and on, and on, and on. And the cop who arrested you wouldn't be a jerk for arresting you, he would just be doing his job by arresting someone who was breaking the law.

As someone who has gone through the criminal justice system, and as someone who has spent time in various correctional institutions, I strongly suggest that people make an effort to follow their local knife laws to the letter. There are many cool cops out their, I have met and known several myself, but you have a lot to lose if you gamble your freedom, and your future, on the HOPE that the cops will be cool and let you slide for breaking your local knife laws. The best way to avoid being arrested is to not give the cops a lawful reason to arrest you.

I myself have never had a negative experience with law enforcement because of the knives I was carrying. But then, I obey my local knife laws.
 
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Here in Cali if you carry anything like a balisong or an auto that violates the law they usually just confiscate it. I've never heard of someone I know having charges pressed.
 
Killgar, the role of police is to collect evidence, compel people to court, and forward their findings to decision makers (judge/jury/prosecution). In the case of the motorcycle fan that was carying a larger than legal knife, I would say that he interpreted a law different than a proffessional lawyer. When they were in doubt, they laid the charge and sent it up the chain to the decision makers. The OP (and several people on that post) complained that 12 officers debated whether to charge the fellow. The simple fact is, that two disagreed, and 10 decided to charge. If this is an acurate portrayal of what actually happened then the OP had a near unanimous "jury" of law enfircement proffessionals that still decided by majority to let the prosecution and a judge determine guilt. It was not the police officers fault.

People have this wild inclination that every time someone is charged by police, they go to jail. Yes the charges laid by police are usually quite strong, since the circumstances are usually easy to figure out.

The investigating officer, usually in conjunction with a supervisor has what is called discretion. They can choose to give warnings, or extrajudicial sanctions (still in conjunction with prosecutors) instead of charging.
 
k1ssthecook said:
Killgar, the role of police is to collect evidence, compel people to court, and forward their findings to decision makers (judge/jury/prosecution). In the case of the motorcycle fan that was carying a larger than legal knife, I would say that he interpreted a law different than a proffessional lawyer. When they were in doubt, they laid the charge and sent it up the chain to the decision makers. The OP (and several people on that post) complained that 12 officers debated whether to charge the fellow. The simple fact is, that two disagreed, and 10 decided to charge. If this is an acurate portrayal of what actually happened then the OP had a near unanimous "jury" of law enfircement proffessionals that still decided by majority to let the prosecution and a judge determine guilt. It was not the police officers fault.

People have this wild inclination that every time someone is charged by police, they go to jail. Yes the charges laid by police are usually quite strong, since the circumstances are usually easy to figure out.

The investigating officer, usually in conjunction with a supervisor has what is called discretion. They can choose to give warnings, or extrajudicial sanctions (still in conjunction with prosecutors) instead of charging.
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I don't know how law enforcement operate in Canada, but here in the US it is commonplace for cops to arrest people and take them to jail, sometimes for minor offenses. The jail and prison population here in the US is a testament to that fact. I would wager that the jail and prison populations in the US are much higher than in Canada.

When the cops here in the US arrest someone, they don't drive them home or drive them around in their patrol car for awhile and then let them go, they take them TO JAIL. How long they stay in jail is based on the individual circumstances of their case. There are several factors that can determine whether a person here in the US is arrested and taken to jail, the attitude of the cop, and the attitude of the person are only a few. Sadly, money and politics also play a role, I will discuss that more in a moment.

While it's true that the cops here in the US have LIMITED discretion when it comes to how they enforce the law, the cops face SERIOUS repercussions if they make a mistake in the use of that discretion. I don't know if the cops in Canada are subject to lawsuits for their decisions, but here in the US they are. If a cop here in the US discovered that someone was carrying an illegal knife, and if that cop decided to let that person walk with that illegal knife, and if that person went on to commit a crime with that illegal knife, there would be hell to pay for that cop. That cop could very well face the end of their career in law enforcement, as well as be sued by the victim or the victims family. While there might be some cops here in the US who are willing to let people walk with illegal knives, I certainly wouldn't expect a cop to risk their career, or the financial well-being of them and their family just to give a total stranger a break, especially when that total stranger is carrying an ILLEGAL KNIFE. The cops I know personally certainly wouldn't take such risks.

Like I said before, people get arrested and taken to jail for very minor offenses here in the US. Here are the stories of two guys I met in jail-

One guy, an average working Joe with no criminal record was taking the trolley to work. When the trolley cops came around asking to see everyone's trolley ticket the guy couldn't find his. Now riding the trolley without a ticket might seem like a very minor thing, but they take it very seriously here. The trolley cops detained the man, called the real cops, and the real cops were waiting at the next trolley stop. The real cops arrested the man and TOOK HIM TO JAIL for riding the trolley without a ticket. At the jail, when the guy was handing over all his personal belongings, he found his trolley ticket. But it was too late, the deputies at the jail had no discretion to release the man. Once he was arrested and inmate processing had begun, there was no choice but to send the man through the system. The man was arrested the same day as I was (we met during processing), and due to the court schedule and an upcoming weekend, our arraignment date was scheduled for FIVE DAYS LATER. So either the guy had to post bail, or he had to spend five days in jail waiting for his first chance to see a judge. I don't know how his case was resolved, we parted ways during processing.

Another guy, a kid actually (18 years old, looked 15) was sitting on a city bus bench waiting for the bus. He got bored, and being a dumb kid he took out a marker and started writing on the bus bench. A cop driving by just happened to see this. The kid was arrested and charged with vandalism. This kid spent two weeks in one of the most violent jails in San Diego until his case was resolved and he was released. The kid had no previous criminal record, was as meek and quiet as anyone I have ever seen, and from what I saw in court, it appeared that he had good parents.

And that's just two stories of many. People in this country should never underestimate the potential to be arrested and taken to jail IF THEY BREAK THE LAW. Just because WE think that knife laws are silly and ridiculous, doesn't mean they won't be enforced. No matter how "upstanding and law-abiding" people think they are, violating knife laws CAN result in arrest, and time in jail.

Like I said before, politics and money can play a part in law enforcement. Here in San Diego California, the Sheriffs department runs the jails. And the last time I saw the numbers reported, the Sheriffs department here receives $118 a day for every inmate in custody. During the recent recession here in the US, a policy was enacted to reduce jail overpopulation and the related cost to local taxpayers. This policy took the form of judges sentencing people to "alternative" punishments like fines and community service rather than jail. The Sheriff was not shy about expressing his disapproval of this new policy, he gave an interview to the local news where he said, and I quote "If I had my way there wouldn't be an empty bed in any jail here in San Diego". Seeing as how his department received $118 a head, I'm not surprised.

Also, the Sheriffs department here in San Diego receives $75 dollars a head every time they transport inmates from one place to another. As a result, it was common practice for inmates to be transferred from one jail to another throughout the county. It was also not uncommon for inmates to be bussed to court even when they had no court hearings scheduled. As I recall, there was a group of local taxpayers who filed a lawsuit against the Sheriffs department because of this very practice.

And if all that isn't bad enough, there are private companies being paid in taxpayer dollars to supply the jails with everything they use. From food, to toilet paper, to toothpaste, etc, etc. Everything needed by inmates and staff are supplied by private companies at taxpayer expense. And the more need there is (larger jail population) the more supplies the jails need, and the more money those companies make. Based on this, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if those same companies donate large sums of money to the re-election campaigns of the very people responsible for filling the jails, namely the Sheriff, Police Chief, and District attorney.

Again, I don't know what it's like in Canada, but here in the US, the sad truth is that the incarceration of American citizens is big business, with a lot of money, and political futures at stake. I have personally heard cops here in San Diego say that they were instructed by their superiors to make more arrests.
 
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"The United States is a nation of laws, badly written and randomly enforced."
~ Frank Zappa
 
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The "jail" you describe is known as remanding in the Canadian system. This is where the two systems differ. Remanding before trial happens uf soneone has a histiry ofnot showingnup to court, or if the offender poses a risk to the community. There bail is big business, and here you still pay bail, but to the government...so if you don't show up after paying bail then the gov't keeps the money.

Break the law and suffer the consequences, as you say...but do I fully believe the stories of the two cons you met while "inside"? Not entirely. Almost everyine that gets charged offers a very different account of events than what happens (even when it is clear as day on CCTV).

Nobody here is talking about ignoring the law (nor would I condone such behavior), I felt that the OP was merely sharing his story with the ultimate moral of the story being...tell the truth. I mirrored that sentiment given my own experience.
 
Massad A you gives a warning to gun carriers: of it comes to a legal confrontation, the appearance is more important than reality. A threatening looking weapon or one with a viscous sounding name is more likely to get a conviction than one less so. In his example, a Colt Diamond back with Scorpion ammunition is doubly cursed. "The defendant wasn't satisfied with just shooting Mr Jones. He had to use evil SCORPION ammo from a GUN NAMED AFTER A POISONOUS SNAKE-A COBRA. What is worse than that?" If it was ball ammo out of a SW model 29, it sounds much blander. The same goes for knives. An Opinel #10 is much less likely to cause trouble than a benchmade Bedlam, in looks and name. Same chunks whacked off; same poke holes made, but it's comparing Mongols to Boy Scouts.
 
In DC, we had a woman get a year in jail for eating an apple on the subway. She also cussed out the police, which didn't help (see above).
 
Gingerman said:
Massad A you gives a warning to gun carriers: of it comes to a legal confrontation, the appearance is more important than reality. A threatening looking weapon or one with a viscous sounding name is more likely to get a conviction than one less so. In his example, a Colt Diamond back with Scorpion ammunition is doubly cursed. "The defendant wasn't satisfied with just shooting Mr Jones. He had to use evil SCORPION ammo from a GUN NAMED AFTER A POISONOUS SNAKE-A COBRA. What is worse than that?" If it was ball ammo out of a SW model 29, it sounds much blander. The same goes for knives. An Opinel #10 is much less likely to cause trouble than a benchmade Bedlam, in looks and name. Same chunks whacked off; same poke holes made, but it's comparing Mongols to Boy Scouts.
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Now you just hold on there bud. I have seen this argument come up many, many, many times on various forums, and out of every single time it's been uttered, absolutely nobody has ever, under any circumstances, ever been able to produce one single court case where the defendant was convicted based solely on the appearance or configuration of their firearm. They have presented absolutely zero evidence that would support their argument that a deadly weapon is regarded differently in court due to synthetic furniture versus wooden furniture, or matte black finish versus cold blued finish.

Now if you have actual evidence to support your position then present it for consideration. Otherwise stop spreading nonsense like it's fact.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Stay out of New York City. Maybe with the new mayor and police commissioner, that will change. They have been busting people on technicalities like those. Professional police won't use knife charges unless they have some other serious violations to get under control.
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Police in Boston and a number of North Shore cities and towns have been arresting people solely for carrying knives with blades longer than 2.5". I see it happening on a regular basis. One of my neighbors, who has a Massachusetts Class A License to Carry Firearms (no restrictions) was hassled by a female officer in Lynn (a North Shore city) after she saw the pocket clip of his utility knife. Thankfully, the knife only had a 1" blade and he was not arrested. Had he been arrested and convicted, he would likely have lost his LTC, which are issued solely at the discretion of local police chiefs. Does it make sense? Hardly. But that is the law of the land here in MA.
 
If you read the post, it is attributed to Massad Ayoub, a writer and consultant on weapons for law enforcement agencies and journals. Question him, but no need to get snark with me.
Nor does it say that anyone was ever convicted solely on this, but you better believe that even the way you dress matters to a jury.
 
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