Knife Maker's Insurance

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Sep 1, 2008
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62
For the folks that have established a knife making or blade smithing business, what do you do for liability insurance? Is this hard to get? Expensive? Or are you 'flying under the radar?' Just curious, and hoping to find a good direction for a carrier.

Thanks :D
Bob
 
Wouldn't it be cheaper to incorporate for a couple hundred bucks and protect yourself that way?
 
i have been looking around at LLC. based on some preliminary info it looks like i can get 50,000 of coverage for around 500 up front...

not bad. not essential, but i'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. of course, at the moment i'm where flud is...nothing to take.
 
Get it.

I had a talk with Jody Muller about this subject at the last blade show and it opened my eyes. Since I claim knifemaking on my taxes, that means my house insurance wouldn't cover my shop tools and while I don't have a large warehouse or anything, I've accumulated quite a bit of crap. Getting an LLC. was pretty easy and cheap. The business insurance runs me about $1000 a year and covers everything from my tools to liability.
 
Check into an umbrella policy until you can get your llc and liability ins.Mine was pretty cheap and beat having nothing. Chad
 
Since I claim knifemaking on my taxes, that means my house insurance wouldn't cover my shop tools...

Very true.
Claiming the income makes it completely unequivocal- no doubt about it. But note that if you make any money at it at all, claimed or not, still not covered. :eek:

Here are the sections from the standard homeowners insurance policy (this is 98% the same from company to company):

We do not cover other structures:
1. Used in whole or in part for "business"; or
"Other structures" means pole barns, detached garages, sheds, etc.

The special limit for each numbered category below is the total limit for each loss for all property in that category.
8. $2500 on property, on the "residence premises," used at any time or in any manner for any "business" purpose
This means tools, materials, etc. COvered, but limited to $2500.
 
I ran a home based website business designing and building electronic componets for seven years. The entire time I never had liability insurance. The business was incorporated and I loaned my own money to the corp at a high rate of interest payable on demand. This kept the corp. in debt and I filed UCC-1 commercial lien against the corp. That would give me first right to the money if the corp had to bancrupt.

The loan note was signed and notorized. Attornies do an asset seached before iniatiating legal action. One of the searches is for comercial liens. They do not want to see debt and no real estate held by the corp. That would stop a lawsuit before it ever started.

Incorporating cost $99
State busines license $15
UCC-1 filing online $10
 
Being married to a lawyer, I cringe when I read how folks think incorporating and such will protect them against any and all liability.
If the liability is strictly a matter of the company's, such as a product or debt liability, then you have some protection.
As the operator of the company ( and usually principal shareholder) you can be held personally responsible for things that involve you. Claims like an injury in your shop (someone else's, not yours) can be pressed against any and all parties that have a pocket (legal term for any money). The standard suit is against the company, the operator of the company, the employee involved, the owner of the building, etc. The principal is to seek the deepest pockets.A shifty businessman may set up his company to be worthless, but with the suit against him and the company separately,the judgment just goes after his assets, since he has the deepest pockets, and the company has none.

If you are the principal recipient of the proceeds of the company, then you are usually on the list. You commonly see this in fraud suits against big corporations ( Enron, etc.), where they sue the corporation ,and the officers of the corporation, who have been making tens of millions a year, while the company was going broke.

The other place you see this is in punitive suits, like child molestation. Say a teacher fools around with a kid at the teachers house ( the school knows nothing about it). The suit will separately list the teacher, the school, the school board, and the city. Now the teacher won't have much money ( he is probably going to prison). The school and school board have insurance coverage. The deepest pockets are the City's, so the settlement is something like this:
Teacher- $20,000,which they will probably never get.
School and Board- $1,000,000 ,which is probably the policy limits of their insurance coverage.
City- $10,000,000 because they have the funds.

In an appeal ,the lower amounts may be discharged and the only amount left to stand is the deepest pocket.


This is not to say that incorporating is not good....it is. An LLC is great. But you will still need the insurance coverage. You will also need to have the company properly set up and run legally.

Final comment-
Financial wizardry to hide assets looks good on the P&L (as long as the IRS doesn't look at it), but looks bad in court. One of my lawyer friends had a client who was the owner of a good business (contractor), which was incorporated.He paid every one of his personal purchases with his company credit card ( supplies). He paid his mortgage, truck and car , and house bills with company checks ( used for company business). He traveled at company expense ( "business trips"), dined at company expense (Entertaining clients),etc. Every year the company made no money, and there were no corporate taxes owed. He drew no salary, and he paid no personal income taxes. One day he fell at work and broke his back. It took a year to recover. He quickly went through all his savings, the business was not running and there was no income,he soon had no health insurance ( the business provided it), the medical bills piled up and the house fell into threat of foreclosure. He filed for bankruptcy. The first thing the trustee wanted to see was the last three years tax filings. When he was found to have filed no personal income tax returns, and his corporation filed $0 profit returns, his case was dismissed with prejudice (meaning he couldn't re-apply). The IRS checked into it and held him responsible for the entire gross income of the company ( until he could prove where the money was spent). Then they charged him with tax evasion. Long story short, he lost everything, and spent a year in the Federal Hotel. He swore to my friend that he was told it was legal to do what he did, and no one ever gets caught.
Stacy
 
The process I used was to protect against frivolous lawsuits not criminal conduct or tax evasion.

At that time there was a law firm that was going after small businesses that were operating via the internet. They purchased the patent for any transactions that involved a cathode ray tube. The firm stayed away from large businesses that had a legal dept. or deep pockets to fight them. Instead they went after the little guy and wanted $35K to get a license from them or face litigation. Then they would settle for $5000.

This dirty little tactic caused hundreds of small businesses to either go under or fork out $5k to avoid going to court. I wasn't going to make thier little game easy for them if they decided to go after me.

The best defense is a good offense.

http://www.pcexpressions.com/Portfolio/Article%20for%20EContent%20Magazine.pdf

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/033/RipOff0033853.htm
 
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Stacy's explanation is very reasonable and possible.

Keep an eye out for your family, Craig
 
Good points Stacy. It doesn't cost much to get a good tax person either. It helps make sure you're doing everything on the "up and up" and will give you peace-of-mind.
 
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