Knife making Metallurgy: Science or Mysticism?

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Nov 6, 1999
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I collect handmade, single-maker, handforged fixed blade knives. I like forged knives because I think there is something mystical about a blade made by melting a lump of steel and pounding it out with a hammer on an anvil to near the final shape and profile. I think such a blade carries with it something of the heart, soul and Intent of the maker.

I am curious what knife makers and collectors think about this. I am a scientist, but also a student of the ancient art of Alchemy and various other arcana. I find myself curiously straddling two worlds. The Ancient and the Modern. The world of Science and the world of Art. Knowledge compared to Understanding. The difference between what is understood intellectually, and what is Felt.

I think both of these viewpoints are right and correct. One can think like a scientist And like a mystic. In fact, I think to be a whole person, one needs to embrace Both viewpoints. In fact modern psychologists often talk about the Mind being composed of two parts: the conscious and unconscious. I think the truest expression of Art bridges the gap between these worlds.

As a scientist I would argue that there is nothing at all mystical about the metallurgy of knife making. But I am increasingly aware that Man's understanding and control over the complex molecular rearrangements that occur during forging, hardening, and tempering is not an exact science. The books and manuals don't cover everything. The optimal materials and conditions for blade making must still be discovered by trial and error by each knife maker. And as in Art, there is no end to this process. A knife maker's skill will improve with each blade he makes.


I will end with what some find an irritating observation about learning. Knowledge only increases ignorance. The more one knows about anything, the more one understands what he does Not Know. As a collector, I think it is important to appreciate both the Art and the Science of knife making. Comments?

I have also posted a sort of companion topic here in the custom forum: What little I know about blade making metallurgy. These comments are more directed towards the science of blade smithing but I think might be of more general interest as well. I didn't really know which forum was most appropriate for these two topics. So I'm putting them both here where collectors and makers exchange ideas. Thanks to all who take the time to read and reply.

Paracelsus

(Edited for clarity)

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 08-13-2000).]
 
Both the old and new boil down to one thing.
There is an aura to forged blades with secret heat treat ect.
There is a aura to the high tech fellow who does it all to the nats butt..
The end result is the same...

All that has been discovered is how the old way effects the steel . We wrote it in books about it instead of passing it along from one craftsman to another in a secret circle.
Yes every person who forges there own steel and does there own heat treating most often have little secrets (hunches, feelings)that they find over time to make the blades a bit tougher or cut better longer. This is the nature of being human.
I feel that letting someone else do my heat treating would be much easier BUT I know that they have days when things are just not up to snuff. So for my clients sake I do it myself because I know the end result.
As for the mystic value Well as I said I feel that forging my own steel and heat treating it is of value to me and my clients.
Do the parameters different from the old way of heat treating and forging?
Yes I feel that there is a hunch, feeling , method that is gained here from doing these processes yourself. It also gives the collector a knife built with them in mind most often (if ordered from the maker). I feel the relationship of a maker and client make the aura of the knife (finished product)
a work of art created for the client themself.

I feel that sub thought for a period, contact with the client and the makers life happenings at the time of the creation will result in something great most often.
Like explaining a miracle I guess.
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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!


[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 27 November 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 27 November 1999).]
 
I'm sending this old thread back to the top hoping that it will inspire some more great thoughts from makers or collectors. Thanks Darrel!
 
I'm disappointed . . . I thought Darrel made those beautiful knives by utilizing virgin's milk, the Philosopher's Stone, stump water in a silver basin under a full moon, etc.

I think the creative impulse (Darrel's "Impulse" too!) reflects something of the transcendent . . . the wisdom of our teachers and the hard work & practice we do is what lets it out.
 
I had an opportunity to look at some photomicrographs of Al Pendray's Wootz steel while at the Guild Show. It is simply amazing, and it was first made in about the first century BC. If that stuff doesn't approach mystical I don't know what does.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
 
Science and technology give us control and the ability to measure things accurately. We can discover or create a parameter to measure and we can optimise our materials and processes to maximise (or minimise) this parameter. The problem with this is that we narrow our focus and may be optimising something that is of only secondary importance. For years I saw articles on how to make the smoothest edges, but my experiments showed that a coarser edge often cut better. This concept was totally lost on people who were in love with their photo-micrographs.

The other thing we miss when we study and optimise things based on our favorite theory or instrument--the chance for some total surprise technique. I bet the first cryo treatment was done by some guy who just happened to have liquid nitrogen around, no real science to it. Guys with goofy ideas and determination to try things and then test the results open doors that you never see with a scanning electron microscope.

The mysticism that can be a liability is when you construct an elaborate false explanation for how your new technique achieves its benefits. This is where science has it strength, trying to measure and characterise what you've accomplished by gut intuition. The alchemists opened many doors, the chemists found the patterns to the doors and explained the whole building. The alchemists thought the doors were on the side of a hippogriff.


[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 08-14-2000).]
 
Sorry, Jeff, while I agree with a lot of things being discovered by accident, cryo isn't one of them. IIRC, it was orignially developed for aerospace springs (at least, the major companies offering cryo a few years back were all aerospace; I can't guarantee that the original work was done with an specific application in mind at all, lost's of science is just done for the sake of it). Actually, the springs that lift the gull-wind doors on the ill-fated Delorean automibile were cryo-ed to increase their life span.

Still, it is a good point that a lot of what we take for granted now was discovered simply by chance.

On Darrel's post, I would like ot chime in one thing, though: in some cases, a maker may not have the skills it takes to properly heat-treat a blade, in which case I would rather s/he send the blade out, instead of getting poorer-quality blades. While it's nice to know that a maker treated their own blade, I don't base my decisions on that (unless the blades is forged; if a maker forges but cannot heat-treat, I may get worried
wink.gif
).

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Very interesting post. I realize its an old thread but i have a response.

Blades for me are totally mystical. All the blades I own have a certain energy that speaks to me. I don't know much about the actual craft itself, but I have spoken to some of the makers and you can feel their muse speaking through them as they talk about the making of a particular piece. That energy is what separates true pieces of artistic expression from factory models. That energy is what calls you from across a crowded room to a certain table that has a special gift for you.

Science and the precisness of a craft are very necessary to the function of the piece, but the spirit of the piece, the mysticism that radiates, is divinely inspired.

So I agree, there has to be a balance. Without the technical know-how, there would be no manifestation of the inspiration. But I do believe it starts with the inspiration...
 
HOOBOY yo guys have been reading too many comic books.

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Sola Fide
 
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