Knife newbie needs knowledge!

D

DaTrueDave

Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
204
OK, so I stumbled upon these forums looking for information on the Kershaw/Strider collaboration and realized just how little I know about knives.

I want to know more. If there's a website that goes over the basics that would be great. If y'all want to talk about it here, that would be very cool.

I have so many questions. Why are there so many different names for the different types of steel? What's the difference between them? Do some companies simply make up a name for their steel, even though it's the same stuff everyone else is using?

What about G-10? Why is it so cool to have a knife with a handle made out of this stuff?

Why are big production folding knives so expensive? Is it because everyone's jumping on the "tactical" bandwagon? Are the costs really that great? Is it that difficult to design a knife?

The main knife that I carry is a Kershaw SpeedSafe design. Are other company's assisted-open knives really comparable to the Kershaws?

I've built my fair share of computers. If someone asks me for a retailer with good prices, I can always point them to NewEgg.com and guarantee them that they'll get fair prices and often the absolute best prices. Is there a web retailer for knives that has a similar reputation?

I've noticed that the knife company websites are really behind the times. Is there somewhere else you go for information on the latest and greatest, or is this it?

Well, I know that I'm asking a lot all at once, but I've tried following some discussions and I'm simply lost with no knowledge on which to base any opinions. I need the basics.

Thanks in advance for your time and patience!
 
Whoa! Slowdown greenhorn! How about doing a search on the appropriate sections for each of your questions? Oh, yeah! Welcome!
 
welcome to both of you newbs!

search is a highly complicated animal, I suggest you start small [read old posts] and poke around a bit


no one is going to have all that info in one post:thumbup:
 
Welcome to Bladeforums, Dave! :)

If there's a website that goes over the basics that would be great.

There is, it's called Bladeforums, and the information is all over the place. There's so much, it takes time to get to it.

Why are there so many different names for the different types of steel? What's the difference between them? Do some companies simply make up a name for their steel, even though it's the same stuff everyone else is using?

There are simply many different steels, based on the addition of an amount of carbon to the iron, and other elements to make it stainless.

Here's a FAQ to help you with some basic information: the A.G.Russell Knife Encyclopedia. Check out the last article, on Steel.

Some manufacturers do use what amounts to cover names for their steels. One reason is to allow them to change the actual steel without confusing the issue with constant name changes, too. Another is to dignify a technically lesser grade with a generic name.

What about G-10? Why is it so cool to have a knife with a handle made out of this stuff?

There are many reliable handle materials. Some like G-10 are probably more durable than the people who use it. It is strong, grippy, and shrugs off abuse.

Why are big production folding knives so expensive? Is it because everyone's jumping on the "tactical" bandwagon? Are the costs really that great? Is it that difficult to design a knife?

All big production knives are not very expensive, but some companies have deserved reputations for especially sharp, durable, warrenteed blades. These are in high demand and that drives up the price, perhaps above the cost of materials and production alone.

Are other company's assisted-open knives really comparable to the Kershaws?

Comparability can be a personal appreciation of esthetics as well as performance. Ken Onion provides Kershaw with interesting designs. Before collaborating with him, Kershaw still made some excellent knives.

Other companies also do assisted opening knives well.

Is there a web retailer for knives that has a similar reputation?

One of our subforums is The Good, The Bad, The Ugly, where we praise or denigrate buyers, sellers, and retailers with whom we've dealt. You can get some hint of who is worth patronizing there.

I can give you a few websites I've found to be competitive and reliable, and hope others will add their own favorites.

www.1sks.com -- One Stop Knife Shop, the owner/sponsor of Bladeforums
www.knifeworks.com
www.knifecenter.com --- like 1SKS, great variety
www.newgraham.com
www.agrussell.com -- not the cheapest, but excellent information

I've noticed that the knife company websites are really behind the times. Is there somewhere else you go for information on the latest and greatest, or is this it?

Company websites often lag. Spyderco and Benchmade and SOG and Cold Steel tend to be pretty informative. Retailers often quote directly from them in their own listings.

I would recommend going to the dealers I listed in the answer above this, to get good pictures and information
 
Steels differ in a lot of interesting ways....resistance to chipping, corrosion, how long it can stay sharp are just a few of the major ones.

But it gets worse--the same steels differ between different knife manufacturers. Apparently, the treatment of those steels is critical.

Here's a short list of some of my favorites, whic you won't go wrong with:
440C
VG10
D2
S30V



I'm a HUGE G10 fan. It feels great when done right, it gets grippier when wet (!), I like how it looks, but most of all, it's just ridiculously tough. I was in a bit of a tight situation installing some air filters into the ceiling (on a ladder) yesterday and I could get the stupid vent grill to close. I just turned to my trusty para (In g10) and pounded it one good time with the butt of the knife. Closed the grill, and when I got down, I just rubbed off the paint from the vent. It's borderline invincible. I can't believe how much punishment it has taken in its short life and it hasn't even altered it visually.


The costs of high end knives really aren't that bad if you consider that everybody needs ONE good EDC. And if we followed that, you'd buy a 110 dollar knife and maybe get a new one every four years or so. That's not too bad. It only gets bad when you get into them and can't stop.



I really liked www.newgraham.com . I've ordered maybe 15 knives from them now...I have two in the mail from them as we speak. Great prices, great service and pretty good selection.

Spyderco.com has good info, Benchmade is not as well organized but it is still helpful.... www.knifecenter.com is extremely well organized, has a great selection from a ton of different companies and a blurb about each, I use their website all the time.

Really though, here's how you'll want to do it--go to a decent knife store and just handle any knife that takes your fancy. You'll need to touch them to understand what you like and don't like. Thumbstud or spyder hole? Axis lock or framelock? What about G10 or FRN or titanium? Some people (me) love choils, but some folks hate them.

There isn't one thing better than another here, but you're going to develop a high level of personal preference the more you use good knives.

I recommend you kick off your knife interest with one Benchmade and one Spyderco. You could do a minigrip and a Native, or if you'd rather go high end, maybe a 921 and a para--I recommend getting something very benchmady and something very spydery. It doesn't have to be at the same time, flip a coin to choose one or the other if you can't find an irresistable design from one of them. Maybe through in a Kershaw or CRKT....

Focus on those first two companies to narrow down your selection, and it's also really hard to make a bad choice from them, since they don't use low end steels or quality as a rule.
 
If you want to try an assisted opener that will knock you socks off, try some of the newer Buck knives. I think their action is much better than the Kershaw's. Also, if you get it with a blade of ATS-34 (with a Paul Bos heat treat) its edge holding will eclipse your Kershaw.
 
While you can save some money by mail order, being that you live in a metropolitan area I would recommend that you seek out one or two stores that carry a good stock of knives so you can get the feel for what interests and works best for you. We all have our preferences.

There are a lot of quality knives on the market today, in a lot of styles, materials and sizes. In my opinion the extra few dollars spent at a local store, especially as one is starting out, are well worth it - if in fact you actually end up spending an extra few dollars. Where I live the knife stores are actually fairly competitive with mail order and, they sharpen anything I have (whether I purchased it there or elsewhere), allow me to see and handle many knives, and enjoy the blade dialogue as much as I do.

This is not meant to be a plug for your local knife store, but instead just to point out that preferences play a role in the selection of knives and, the fit/feel/operation is difficult to discern from a website or catalog alone.

Of course nothing will replace the value of this forum. Here you will find first hand information on about any knife related subject - and plenty of it. The insight is particularly insightful.
 
I do plan on finding and visiting a knife store, but I think I really want to brush up on what most of you consider to be common knowledge before I do...
 
BTW: G10 is fiberglass that's pregnated with epoxy. Zytel is plastic and micarta is same thing as G10, though it uses either paper or canvas instead of the glass.
The CRKT M16/M21 is a nice near 4" folder for $50
 
Mmmh, if you say that G-10 and Mircarta is the same, then G-10 and CF is also the same.....

To clarify:
Wood (for completeness sake ;) ):
Pretty sure you have heard of that one :D. Celluloses fibers which are aligned and held together (cementing agent) by lignin. Pretty amazing stuff actually.
FRN (Zytel):
Nylon, reinforced with unaligned (relative short) glass fibers. Meaning you start of with the cementing agent and then "stir" in the fibers. Obviously, the fibers are not aligned. The fibers give strength but not as much as they would add if they were aligned. FRN can be injection molded and doesn't have to be machined, makes it much cheaper. Not as strong as the others but strong enough for most (knife-) applications. Resistant against pretty much all environmental conditions. Relatively heavy, not resistant against high heat (read flame, not sunny day). Feels cheap. Better than its reputation.
G-10:
Starting with a glassfiber matrix (glassfiber mats), epoxy is added as a cementing agent. Fibers are (obviously) aligned. VERY strong. Heavy (glass is not very light, and yes these are real glass fibers. Pulled to fibers glass has a tensil strength that is orders of magnitude larger than that of steel). Resists all kinds of environmental agents. Needs to be machined. Feels nice, can be given a texture that makes it very "grippy".
Mircarta:
Canvas or other cloth fiber (matrix) held together with a cementing agent (a lacquer and not an epoxy I believe but that is secondary). Fibers aligned. Again, very resistant. VERy strong. You should read what Jerry Busse says about Mircarta! Even though it is softer, it has actually greater strength than steel! Lighter than G-10. Needs to be machined and is usually polished. Canvas mircarta has a natural "grippy" almost sticky surface (but much smoother than textured G-10) that gets less and less so as the fibers get finer.
CF (carbon fiber)
Carbon fiber matrix held together by cementing agent (all kinds of, often an epoxy, again not really big difference, the fiber is the big difference here). Fibers aligned. STRONG. Did I mention STRONG? Carbon fibers have an even higher tensile strength than glass and are lighter at the same time. Can be made stronger than any of the above. Light. Resistant to most environmental agents. Needs to be machined and is, I believe more difficult to machine than the others. Can have polished or non polished surface. Looks really COOL. Expensive.

Ok, this was a quick introduction, not a scientific treatise, please read it like that!
 
Welcome to the party! It always good to get some new blood in the forum.

I might suggest switching over to the toolshed forum if you are really interested in knife design and construction.

The resident guru ninja wizard, Mr. Joe Talmadge, has posted a very long but informative and entertaining post about knives in general. You might enjoy it.

Again, glad to have you here!

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828
 
Man, look at all this great info.
I don't have much to add, since a lot has been comprehensively covered, but one thing I will touch on is mechanical technology.

In addition to all the chemistry and physics that goes into the materials (complex steel formulas, fancy & high-tech handle materials, etc.), there is a tremendous amount of research and development going into the mechanisms incorporated into these knives. For example, the torsion bar that Kershaw/Onion knives use is not technically a spring. The Axis lock, by Benchmade, was a ground-breaking invention, and initially it drove up costs (until it caught on and became more mainstream, that is). Now, other companies have similar lock mechanisms as well: Spyderco's ball bearing lock, SOG's arc lock, CRKT's rollock, etc. Liner locks were invented in the 80s as an alternative to the traditional lockback (Spyderco also refined the lockback into the Midlock, wherein the locking lever is about half the length of the handle, instead of the full length [Buck 110]). The liner lock eventually evolved into the frame lock, which is stronger (according to some).
Pivots and joints have been refined as well, with the addition of bearings, bushings, and washers. Nylon washers are commonly used, but another high-tech alternative is the Phosphor-Bronze bearing (thanks again, chemistry).
Pretty much all of this stuff would be considered excessive to the average knife user, who wouldn't even think to need S30V steel, carbon-fiber handles, or an axis lock. Most people are happy with a $3 Chinese POS. We of discerning taste, however, are glad that we have neat toys to occupy our hands and brains (not to mention wallets).

Welcome to the forums.
Peace.
Alex.
 
I don't feel like sharing it with you.

just kidding
welcome to bladeforums :cool:

PEte

PS My brother is new here. Jude_061 is his name.
 
I think I've read everything at all the sites linked in this thread. Thanks a lot, everyone!

Feel free to post more!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top