Knife Practicioners take note!

...how they came to the conclusion that FMA / Eskrima is the source of the guy's technique unless he had a rep for being associated with a specific school of recent. This irks me because it was a stab wound technique that could be associated with any training even though it could be made to be stigmatized and associated with a specific style. I am curious if the assailant has a mixed martial arts background and whether his association with his "friends" may have something to do with his training. The knife wound could have been inflicted from a plethora of techniques out there that can be sourced from books, videotapes, classes, etc... Even individuals that dwell on the street could have done the technique. It will be interesting to see how this develops. Interesting post...
 
Agreed. It could have been anyone or any type of technique. However, the papers seem to be making a big deal of him being trained in knife fighting as well as Kali and Eskrima. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

Emptyglass
 
I beg to differ...
If a preponderance of force is being used which threatened a life...

6'5" and 320 and a bouncer... a man like that could easily kill a guy 5'5" and 140 lbs with one or two punches. If the knife wielder had a licensed gun instead, would he have been justified in defending his friend from what he percieved as deadly force?

Now, if one thinks that just being 6'5" and 320 is not enough of an indication of malevolence, let's take into consideration his vocation... Bouncers in NYC are known to be decisively violent, and quick to use force. Any bouncer worth his salt will be the first one to take down his opponent before the victim has a chance to use violence... bouncing is pro-active, not reactive.

Let's not blame the system or the weapon, but instead concentrate on what was done and why.

I offer up another thought... perhaps this one guys death saved many others... If the Chan brothers were indeed children of "Ghost Shadow" leaders, and were injured, perhaps that would have sparked a "war" which might have left dozens dead or injured.

Thinking out of the box and leaving out judgement calls clearly offers alternative theories.

BTW, I was told that Eskrima does not teach the Femoral shot. If so, the martial arts arguement goes out the window.
 
Hi MelancholyMutt:

Many martial art systems (including Filipino if they are realistic) teach femoral and perenium cuts and stabs. Nothing is considered out of bounds including skinning cuts, returning the blade, decapitation cuts and other unorthodox or "dirty" techniques. That is simply a part of blade fighting that has been developed in life and death conditions over the last 10-20,000 years of human history.

As for life being threatened, well I have to agree with you that your hypothesis is possible. However, if this was the case, why did Mr. Umali then go home and attempt suicide by slashing his wrists and throat? If he felt justified, he probably wouldn't have wanted to take this action don't you think?

No one is blaming the weapon, the knife didn't pick itself up and stab Mr. Blake. Mr. Umali's teacher most likely didn't tell him to go out and kill someone in a bar. Mr. Umali did this and he is the only one responsible.

Sorry if this didn't come across more clearly.

As for the other speculation you presented about a gang war. That may well have been, but one the one thing which is definite is that one person is dead and the person who did so unfortunately is purported to have been trained in the Filipino Martial Arts.

Respectfully,

Emptyglass


Originally posted by MelancholyMutt
I beg to differ...
If a preponderance of force is being used which threatened a life...

6'5" and 320 and a bouncer... a man like that could easily kill a guy 5'5" and 140 lbs with one or two punches. If the knife wielder had a licensed gun instead, would he have been justified in defending his friend from what he percieved as deadly force?

Now, if one thinks that just being 6'5" and 320 is not enough of an indication of malevolence, let's take into consideration his vocation... Bouncers in NYC are known to be decisively violent, and quick to use force. Any bouncer worth his salt will be the first one to take down his opponent before the victim has a chance to use violence... bouncing is pro-active, not reactive.

Let's not blame the system or the weapon, but instead concentrate on what was done and why.

I offer up another thought... perhaps this one guys death saved many others... If the Chan brothers were indeed children of "Ghost Shadow" leaders, and were injured, perhaps that would have sparked a "war" which might have left dozens dead or injured.

Thinking out of the box and leaving out judgement calls clearly offers alternative theories.

BTW, I was told that Eskrima does not teach the Femoral shot. If so, the martial arts arguement goes out the window.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by emptyglass
Hi MelancholyMutt:

Many martial art systems (including Filipino if they are realistic) teach femoral and perenium cuts and stabs. Nothing is considered out of bounds including skinning cuts, returning the blade, decapitation cuts and other unorthodox or "dirty" techniques. That is simply a part of blade fighting that has been developed in life and death conditions over the last 10-20,000 years of human history.

As for life being threatened, well I have to agree with you that your hypothesis is possible. However, if this was the case, why did Mr. Umali then go home and attempt suicide by slashing his wrists and throat? If he felt justified, he probably wouldn't have wanted to take this action don't you think?

No one is blaming the weapon, the knife didn't pick itself up and stab Mr. Blake. Mr. Umali's teacher most likely didn't tell him to go out and kill someone in a bar. Mr. Umali did this and he is the only one responsible.

Sorry if this didn't come across more clearly.

As for the other speculation you presented about a gang war. That may well have been, but one the one thing which is definite is that one person is dead and the person who did so unfortunately is purported to have been trained in the Filipino Martial Arts.

Respectfully,

Emptyglass
Click to expand...

Respectfully,
Specifically, I was told by a someone who knows the school the guy attends that the particular school does not specifically teach the Femoral Shot, but many other practices do.

The weapon I was referring to was not the knife, nor the teacher, but your referenced "martial art". Blaming the fact that martial arts gave this guy the ability to kill with one knife stroke. Many people are killed with one knife stroke who's assailant had never had a minute's instruction in martial arts.

Who is to blame for the incident? well, unless we were there, we can only speculate. I think it's a matter of one big guy thinking he was gonna kick the crap out of a little guy, but one of the little guy's friends thought differently...

As for guilt? Many people who end up killing someone... even people on a battlefield, have extreme pangs of guilt. If you do not, or think that you would not, then either you're seriously messed up in the head, or have never injured someone else...

With the greatest respect,
MM
 
Hi there:

I've seen nothing mentioned that the cut involved was a femoral cut. I've only read that he was "stabbed in the groin". There are many ways that could have been accomplished and perhaps he picked up the knowledge of what he did from a seminar with another school or another practicioner. Perhaps it was an accident.

I absolutely agree with your statement that people are killed by knives without martial arts knowledge. I don't believe I ever stated otherwise.

As for who's to blame, well, I wasn't there and in either person's shoes so we can all only speculate.However, One person's life was taken via knife technique against an apparently unarmed person.

No one, especially me is assigning guilt here. Mr. Umali did apparently kill the bouncer. Apparently he felt bad enough about it that he tried to kill himself afterward. Whether the killing was justified is a question that will be answered in court. However, the media attention being inferred by the articles I have read are leading blame at his martial arts training. Obviously this is a false conclusion as any cut could have killed Mr. Blake. It's the attention being drawn to Mr. Umali's training and the fact that someone with that training possibly took a life unjustifiably that I feel is unfortunate. I have modified my original posting to better reflect this and hopefully clear up any confusion on the matter.

One more thing, apparently Mr. Blake was warranted in his actions and within the bounds of his position as security in the club to remove the 2 people who were breaking the NY smoking ban from the establishment. In all of the reports that I've read so far, neither of the people he was removing was Mr. Umali. Stabbing Mr. Blake in the groin (whether he would have died or not) was probably (again this is more speculation) far outside the NYS Penal Code Article 35 (Justification for the use of force in the defense or oneself or another) and had Mr. Blake survived Mr. Umali would have been brought to court on charges of manslaughter or attempted murder. Unfortunately, he didn't survive so that is a moot point.

As for my own feelings on the subject of injuring others, honestly that has nothing to do with the matter. However, truthfully you know nothing about me or my experiences and feelings so I do not think your suppositions are warranted in this conversation.

However, it's a free country (here in the USA at least) so speculate away if you wish.

With respect,

Emptyglass


Originally posted by MelancholyMutt
Respectfully,
Specifically, I was told by a martial arts teacher that Eskrima does not specifically teach the Femoral Shot, but many other practices do.

The weapon I was referring to was not the knife, nor the teacher, but your referenced "martial art". Blaming the fact that martial arts gave this guy the ability to kill with one knife stroke. Many people are killed with one knife stroke who's assailant had never had a minute's instruction in martial arts.

Who is to blame for the incident? well, unless we were there, we can only speculate. I think it's a matter of one big guy thinking he was gonna kick the crap out of a little guy, but one of the little guy's friends thought differently...

As for guilt? Many people who end up killing someone... even people on a battlefield, have extreme pangs of guilt. If you do not, or think that you would not, then either you're seriously messed up in the head, or have never injured someone else...

With the greatest respect,
MM
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by emptyglass

apparently Mr. Blake was warranted in his actions and within the bounds of his position as security in the club to remove the 2 people who were breaking the NY smoking ban from the establishment.

However, truthfully you know nothing about me or my experiences and feelings so I do not think your suppositions are warranted in this conversation.
Click to expand...

Allright Tuffguy...
1) according to the article, those two were not smoking...

as for the rest...
whatever you say...
 
Hi again:

Again, not trying to start an argument, just posting about what I've read:

From the following article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/76827p-70882c.html

Police sources said Umali attempted suicide Monday - a day after he allegedly delivered a fatal stab wound to Dana Blake's groin as the hulking bouncer tossed the suspect's friends from a birthday party for smoking.

From the same article:

"I was just trying to help out my friends," Umali wrote in a suicide note found by his parents, who were there when their son began slashing himself inside his Hillside, Queens, bedroom, according to one law enforcement source."

I'm not a tough guy. I'm just going on the information available. There's really no need to get personal about this is all I was trying to say.

Regards,

Emptyglass
 
From the little info the article gave (and most of us know how inept/inaccurate the news media is), I do not see justification for deadly force. According to the article, the bouncer was stabbed while shoving one of the suspect's friends out of the establishment (and after being jumped on by one or more people). Without being there, I couldn't say for sure one way or the other, but it sure "sounds" like the use of the knife was unwarranted.

If the bouncer had grabbed the guy by the back of the collar and belt and was pushing him out, then no. If the bouncer was smashing the guy's head into anything and everything on the way out and the guy was unconscious, then probably.

Was there anything preventing the suspect and his friends from defusing the situation by simply leaving/cooperating? Something to think about.

Not saying that the suspect is this incident is for sure a 100% bonafide "bad person", but in general: Please guys, whenever possible, let's not share Good information/techniques with Bad people.
 
What a sad mess...Bad publicity for the arts...

Does anyone really know the name of the school?

Bill
 
Originally posted by Copis
What a sad mess...Bad publicity for the arts...

Does anyone really know the name of the school?

Bill
Click to expand...

Yes, but we can't talk about it right now due to pending investigations and legal activity.
 
As a former NYC bouncer( Times Sq) and a student of FMA, I don`t think that all bouncer are violent and we don`t look for people to fight just to get off. Some are stupid and should not be doing this job! When you don`t know what to expect , you control the situation or it will control you.

As for the incident, poor judgement on his part. His emotions took over to protect a friend and he decided his choice.

I don`t believe that they should use FMA as a outlet but anything in NYC is up for grabs when the media takes hold.

Hopefully they don`t drag down any Art because of this incident. Many cops know this type of incidents doesn`t hold water because of what he knows or don`t know.

Just because someone kills a person with one shot doesn`t mean he is a trained sniper.

S/F,
Ceya>> Ceya Knife Designz

Edit to correct spelling.
 
this is very upsetting...i don't understand why they have to emphasize Umali's martial arts background (or any martial arts for that matter). next thing you know they'll ban filipino martial arts (or police all martial arts as to what is being taught) much like how they ban balisong knives. i hate the fact that they say he was an "expert". if was an expert i don't think the situation would have gone that far. i'm supposing alcohol was involved and cluttered better judgement.

this was obviously a poor judgement on the accused part.

i myself have refused and reserved to teach my knife fighting curriculum to those who are worthy of my trust. usually after 5 yrs of training or if they've become my friend. i refuse to teach knife fighting techniques to anyone under 21 yrs old. i may teach knife defense but very limited. no "return to senders" and no knife stripping only knife ejections-n-run and control/ holds. and definitely no cut time table or body templates. and no knife dueling/ sparring. most of these are taught to the "inner circle group".

i've seen too many "i'll-show-the-cool-stuff" gung-ho, practictioners give out techniques at seminars and i shake my head bec. i find this very irresponsible. honestly it's not like there's a background check at these events.

so for those of you who teach, please be aware of who you pass down your information to.

i feel bad for the FMA school or umali's instructor bec. he's an innocent victim in all this whether he like it or not with all this negative press being printed.
 
Anyone who has taken Eskrima for a few months should be able to figure out how to use a knife even if they are only taught sticks. Once you have the reflexes to use a stick switching to a blade is not that difficult. If they have problems they could consult a book or video. "Kill or Get Killed" by Applegate and "Cold Steel" by Styers have been around since WWII. With one of those books an competent Eskrima student (or any martial arts student for that matter) should be able to apply the blade to combat. IMO you also need to know how to use a weapon to be able to defend against it. I've seen many martial artists with no knife skills practice useless defenses. In one class I took before I started regular MA training, the 7th dan Karateka could stop me but none of his students could. At the time the only knife skills I had were from reading one article in SOF or a similar magazine without practicing it. The problem was the students were only trained to defend against unrealistic attacks. Most martial artists I've seen doing gun disarms are just as bad. IMO important life-saving training should not be witheld from students.

According to the articles, this student had two years of training, which does not make someone an expert or master in most cases. It also does not really take that much training to stab someone in the groin. IMO Eskrima really had nothing to do with this.

I do think MA instructors should teach the mental and legal sides of self-defense. No MA instructor I've trained under really covered this aside from my last instructor who is a lawyer. Learning awareness of your environment, making proper judgements, and how to read people can go a long way in avoiding violence. The only good legal training I've had was outside of what is usually considered martial arts. This was in my pistol classes.
 
well said Benjamin...

telling your students about the legality of things is definitely not covered by many instructors. i myself have preached about the mentality of filipino knifers regarding cutting or slashing of the arms first to difuse the situation. but guess what? ever heard of defensive wounds? knife victims usually block with their foreamrs and even grab the blade...so who looks like the victim now if it goes to court?

i understand what is meant regarding how some MA show useless defense techniques. but there really is no such thing. the only difference that really count to this fact is the skill level. it is true that information regarding knife or any kind of killing is a dime a dozen. but at least i my conscience is clear of guilt and i can say "he didn't learn that from me..." i don't feel that you have to be a knife fighter to be able to defend against a knife fight. sure it gives you a whole different understanding of the whole picture but anyone can pick up a chair and act like a lion tamer agains someone fronting you with a knife.

proper knife-defense-only curriculum can be taught effectively if you have the right reflex drills and flow drills. it is after all one of the more advance training of FMA.

eventhough stick work usually tranlsates to knife and empty hand does not necessarily mean it has the same effect. for example, stick work is for crushing bones and has a lot of stopping power, while blade work (sword or dagger)have different effect. a thrust have more killing potential than a slash/ cut (i know...depending on where you cut) but not a lot of stopping power (again, i know...depending on where and which organ is punctured). on the other hand a cut has a more stopping power because of the shock it causes and sends to your brain. so it is these techniques that i leave out and do not delve into detail.

but yes, any individual ignorant of MA's can deliver a killing blow. but most of these will probably be midsection area for obvious reasons. but for a more specific targets wether the opponent is facing or his back turned from you. you have to know proper delivery and specific targets and is a more specialized training. and if all instructors just casually show this to everyone whether in a movie or learned in a dojo is something to think about. always involve consequences to justify technical applications. any good MA shows many different ways of dealing with situations and does not have to end up with someone dead. teaching your student how to assess danger (as in LEO's ladder system levels of danger) can be very helpful.

two things when you decide to pull out a weapon. either you are going to use it as a deterent or you actually intend to use it to destroy. obviously Umali maid his choice.
 
btw it was not femural shot...the spot he chose to target is a well known one-shot-drop-dead or bleed out spot. so it is not a typical or common target. why he decided or how he happened to pick this area i can only imagine...this is the kind of information that i'm talking about that we should refrain from passing to just anyone. killing techniques are never glorious.
 
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