Knife quenching problem about bainite and martensite structure

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Dec 20, 2023
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Hey guys,

I am beginer in knife making. Yesterday I started to make my first knife. I encountered one problem. When I quenched my knife ( W108 Steel), I quenched it for first 3-5 second.,Then I pull it out (in air ) for 3-5 second . Later keep on quenching in oil for finishing quenching.

Knife after heat treatment result : Straight, resist impact ( can batoning ) and sharp

Is it possible to become part of bainite and part of martensite?
Thanks
 
Hey guys,

I am beginer in knife making. Yesterday I started to make my first knife. I encountered one problem. When I quenched my knife ( W108 Steel), I quenched it for first 3-5 second.,Then I pull it out (in air ) for 3-5 second . Later keep on quenching in oil for finishing quenching.

Knife after heat treatment result : Straight, resist impact ( can batoning ) and sharp

Is it possible to become part of bainite and part of martensite?
Thanks

D DevinT is correct

However,

Don't get discouraged.

Keep an open mind and keep learning.

Enjoy the journey.
 
W108 looks similar to 1080

How thick is the blade, and what oil did you use? If it's fairly thin it's probably ok, but there are lots of variables here
I wouldn't worry about any complex heat treatment just yet, it doesn't sound like you have the knowledge for that. You're just starting, so focus on the simple.
Larrin Thomas's book Knife Engineering is a good read for info, and there's is a lot of good stuff on here

if you want to do some more testing this is what i would try: get the edge thin (~0.1mm), add a secondary bevel and get it so you can shave hair, then do some more batoning and see how the edge holds up. or just heat treat it again, I don't think that would be a problem with that steel

To actually answer your question: you probably haven't cooled it right for bainite. that requires a specific process with controlled cooling
 
IMO should be ok
(those who are more obsessed with technical precision will tell you to use an engineered quench oil, so you'll get some suggestions for that :P )
 
Welcome wclkelvin. Fill out your profile so we know where you live and some things about you.

We don't have all the info needed to make a good decision here.
We don't know the austenitization info - Temperature and soak time before quench, and method of heating.
We don't know his quench setup beyond the oil type being canola.
WE don't know the blade size beyond thickness. Blade shape and edge thickness would also help.

Here is my take on it from what we do know:
His steel is basic eutectoid steel (.75-.85C, .35SI, .35Mn, .15Cr) The Mn should increase hardenability somewhat, giving a slightly slower quench rate needed. The small amount of Cr is insignificant in the quench rate. I would equate the HT parameters to be roughly the same as 1080.
Thickness is 4mm/.15" (we don't know the length and width, so we don't know the mass)
His quenchant is a medium-fast oil ... canola. (oil temperature and volume not stated)
He quenched for 3 to 5 seconds - pulled out for three to 5 seconds - re-quenched till cooled.

With these parameters, it would likely have hardened the edge then auto-tempered the spine and upper bevel. This is pretty much the method I use for getting a hamon.

My Reasoning:
The quench speed required for 1080 is very fast. Less than 1 second to drop below 1000°F/540°C. At 3-5 seconds it would have had enough time to pass the pearlite nose assuming the quenchant was sufficiently fast to do that.
Canola isn't Park's #50, but it will work for many steels. IIRC, Dr. Thomas' tests showed canola just a second or two slower than Parks#50 and equal with AAA. W108 steel needs a fast oil, but for a small blade it should harden sufficiently for normal use in canola. You need at least a gallon, and preferably 2-3 gallons to quench a normal size knife blade. The oil needs to be at 120°F/50°C.
The stated IN-2-3-4-5-OUT-2-3-4-5-IN till cool, will often give an auto-hamon, and usually gives some auto-tempering. It is a standard quench method for yaki-ire to get a hamon. Many smiths do that method with no clay and get nice hamons.

Final reasoning - If he sharpened and tested it and trhe edge held up it would appear to be hardened sufficiently.

We all get hung up on BEST HT and final hardness, and often forget that simple methods were the standard for 100's of years. When I was a boy, it was unlikely any commercial knife had a blade above Rc55. Most pocket knives were Rc50 or even lower. Today, I consider a HT with Rc 59 to Rc62 after temper the acceptable range for most blades.

To put in terms an Ozark blacksmith would understand - "Just because Blanton's is a great tasting bourbon doesn't mean you should pour all your Jim Beam down the drain." (save it for when your in-laws come, and hide the Blanton's from them)

BTW, there is almost certainly NO bainite in his blade.
 
IN-2-3-4-5-OUT-2-3-4-5-IN till cool ........... when you count the seconds it is better to use this ...

IN-21-22-23-24-25-OUT-21-22-23-24-25-IN
Much more precisely, with a little practice it is possible to measure seconds very accurately. In the army I was trained to count 20 seconds exactly to the tenth of a second that way . That's how much time I had from firing the rocket to hit the target . Manually guided rocket /no electronic , just 3.2 km wire / which nothing can stop/ interferes to reach target :)
 
W wclkelvin oh and don't get discouraged. a lot of us are nerds and get really into the details, but you can have some fun messing around without doing that
until you get too into it and join us in getting focused on all the minor details :P
 
Thanks everyone. 🙏Every suggestion is invaluable for me (Especailly in beginer stage).
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
Additional Information :Blade length is 95mm ( 3.74 inch)
Overall length is 205mm (8.07inch)
Shape : Drop point
Oil temperature : Not realise need to measure 🤦‍♂️
I will bring it to camping during Christmas for actual testing its ability.
 
I would guess the blade is fine. Merry Christmas and enjoy your new knife.

How to test your knife:
Sharpen the knife the way you do your other knives. 20° per side edge is a good utility edge.
Whittle some dry sticks into feather sticks.
Cut some rope and cardboard into shreds.
If it is still reasonably sharp and the edge didn't chip up badly, the knife is fine. If it got dull very fact, it probably is too soft.
 
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