Knife Ratings

J

JDBLADE

Joined
Dec 8, 2003
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As part of reviewing knives for my customers via "Knife Knews" and our WebSite I developed a rating system based on the reviews. The ratings applied is based on the results of the reviews plus 2 factors 1. is value for money and 2. is utility use. The ratings is based on a 5 star system with 5 being excellent and 1/2 star being don't buy. The results of the reviews I have done so far are as follows:

Spyderco Paramilitary PE = ****
Spyderco Delica PE = ***1/2
Spyderco Moran FB01 = ***1/2
Spyderco Native S30V PE = ***
Blackjack Slick AUS10 = ***
Spyderco Pacific Salt PE = ***
Benchmade Snody Activator = **1/2
Benchmade Griptilian Tanto BM553 = **1/2
Buck Mini Strider 881SP = **1/2
Byrd Meadowlark PE = **
Kabar Dozier KA4064 = **

Just to give a couple of examples of why certain knives are rated as they are:

1. Both the BM553 and Buck 881SP failed the out of the box tests and did not score highly in value for money;

2. Both the Byrd and Kabar knives scored well in value for money.

I would be interested to hear any comments. Do the above ratings appear fair or are they unfair?
 
In regards to value, this is hard to make meaningful because it depends on how much money you have and how important performance is to you. A lot of people might pay double the price for 10% more performance and some people might not pay 10% more for double the performance.

Or consider some really high end pieces like from an ABS mastersmith with a really striking damascus pattern. Now in terms of performance or functional value, this would actually rate really low compared to a working piece like a Cold Steel Trailmaster, not that it would not outperform it, but it would probably cost 10x as much and the performance increase would be no where near that.

Many custom knives have the value gauged by popularity, visual appeal and resale value. Then again people buying knives for those reasons probably don't read performance reviews much.

One other point, some knives are very strong in some areas and weak in others. Some Salts for example would make a much better rescue, safety and salt water knife than the Paramilitary. For a lot of knives a dual rating would be of benefit, have one for a specific set of tasks and then one for a more relaxed general scope of work. Thus the reader could see that some knives work extremely well in some narrow niches but can't hold up well across the board.

By the way, the Byrd reviews in the pass around forum are very high, many describing them as Spyderco level. Do you have a full Bryd review written, the two seems surprising based on what I have read so far.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, thanks for your comments I agree that “value” is hard to make meaningful and I thought long and hard about including it in the ratings and am still not clear whether it will remain as it is or needs to be tuned up or dropped altogether. But, without doing the consumer choice thing I think it is somehow necessary for the average knife buyer to be able to gauge performance against value or to know that value has been included in any assessment of a knife or knives. I think a good comparison is say Benchmades MiniPika and Spyderco’s Delica. Given that the Delica’s MRRP is $66.95 and the MiniPika’s $30.00 (US prices) is the quality and performance of the Delica twice that of the MiniPika – I don’t think so! Both manufacturers provide similar after sales and warranty service. Now in my view the Delica is the better knife but I don’t think it is twice the knife of the MiniPika so in rating the two some weighting should be given to the MiniPika to try to estimate the true worth of the products. An impossible task? Maybe! But, something worth persevering with to see if one can come up with an answer.

Posted by Cliff Stamp
So for a lot of knives I think a dual rating would be of benefit, so have one rating for a very specific task and then one for a more relaxed general scope of work.
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A good point and something that I have given thought to. EG if one was to extend such a ratings system if it proves viable there would be many special purpose areas to look at EG hunting, fishing, survival etc.

Posted by Cliff Stamp
By the way, the Byrd reviews in the pass around forum are very high, many describing them as Spyderco level. Do you have a full Bryd review written, the two seems surprising based on what I have read so far.
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I have just completed a review of the Byrd Meadowlark which I should have available for publication in about a week. Yes! They do come up well in the review and I should say they are not far behind Spyderco’s basic Knives esp., Dragonfly, Delica etc., the fit and finish is good, very good actually, the blade steel seems to be holding up, the blade design, profile and edge is good. I know from reading posts on the Spyderco forum that some people don’t see them as real Spyderco’s which is an interesting point in that they are designed by Spyderco, produced for Spyderco in China and distributed by Spyderco. Okay! They are called Byrds but I wouldn’t let that detract from them it would be no different to calling those knives made for Spyderco in Japan being called “Bugs” – it is an interesting point how much would these knives cost if they were made in Japan of AUS8?

If looks are any guide I was at a market today and I put the Meadowlark next to a FRN Delica and I estimate that most times people picked up the Meadowlark first and more than 1 prospective customer asked along the lines “Why is this one (Meadowlark) cheaper than that one (Delica)? What’s wrong with it?)

In relation to the ratings there are probably 2 factors involved in the rating given the Meadowlark (NB it was very borderline and probably should have been 2-1/2) one is that the SS handle detracts from it for many uses where a sure grip is required in wet and slippery conditions and the other is that I may have been biased against the Meadowlark in that I wanted to be sure that my obvious enthusiasm didn’t over rate the knife and I could have overcompensated in a couple of areas. I also had some reservations re the steel and the testing done so far by Spyderco given that may change with further testing – again I did not want to over rate the knife which given having carried the Meadowlark as an EDC for a while now I can see it was under rated and should be closer to the Delica than it is.
 
Hi JDBlade,

I don't think it's possible to rate "value", a rating based on money, without having some measurement of that money.

Knives made in China will always rate higher in "value" because of the very large discrepancy in the "value" of the money exchange.

100 dollars is 130 Euro is 1050 Yen is 20 Yuen.

Duties are based on cost so 10% duties from Japan on 1050 yen is 10 dollars. 10% duties from China on 20 Yuen is 1 dollar. 10% duties from Europe on 130 Euro is 13 dollars.

That's why everything in Walmart comes from China. They are selling "value".

The Para costs more than 5 times as much as a byrd. Is it 5 times the value? That would be hard to argue.

A USA made steel like S30V might cost $15/lb to purchase and $15/lb to process into a blade.

A Chinese steel like 8Cr13MoV might cost $2/lb to purchase and $2.00/lb to process into a blade.

Right now, the Yen is about 105 to the dollar. 10% duties plus shipping to the USA actually makes the Jpanese made knife more expensive than the USA made knife, based on the "value" of the exchange rate. Enter efficiency of manufacture, and the equation changes.

Right now, the Euro is very strong, running about 125 to the dollar. Again, add 10% duties plus shipping and the European made product is much more expensive to manufacture than the USA made product.

That's why Toyota and BMW have set up mfg plants in the USA.

When the Chinese begin to export the Chinese "Solo" automobile to the USA, even the Korean car mfrs will cringe. $11,000 for a new 4 door sedan?

USA "Jeeps" are now made in China. With more USA mfrs going to China daily, all because of the "value" comparison. Companies like Spyderco and Benchmade cannot compete in "value" with Chinese made Kabars, Bucks and Gerbers, unless we also have a "red" line or a "byrd" line.

I have seen; Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Honda and Toyota in China, ALL made in China. I spent more than 1000 miles in a Buick, made in China.

In order for your "value" chart to have any real significance, you would have to somehow take into account the exchange rate.

Some thoughts to share.

sal
 
Another issue I have with your guide is how do your incorporate more "educated" views. For example, lets say someone buys a high "value" low cost folder. They're happy but after a while they want better performance. SO the initial graph or scale is not nearly as valid. I would think you'd need "Entry level", Intermediate" and "advanced" scales as well.

IMO, MSRP or MAP, or MRRP is totall fiction anyway, I think those prices are set so that brick and mortar stores can show customers they are getting a "discount" when they really aren't. To use pricing in your scale I think you need to use the average available price or something like that.
 
I think it would work out better if you rated each knife in multiple categories, instead of simply combining them into one rating.
 
JDBLADE said:
I agree that “value” is hard to make meaningful ...
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I find it hard to do even when people ask me directly, I generally end up telling them how the knives compare, giving some price info and then letting them decide.

I used to put MSRP and discounts in the reviews, but they change rapidly and it only takes seconds to search, most browsers have toolbar engines now anyway.

...there would be many special purpose areas to look at EG hunting, fishing, survival etc.
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Yes, generally most knives are fairly focused so I was thinking of a main rating and then a general one, but you could easily subdivide it if you were willing to do more work.

You could for example have a broad rating system, say utility,kitchen, hunting,emergency,survival and then a overall rating which would just be a sum.

Of course any of these could be subdivided, survivial in the artic isn't the same as survivial in the desert. Lots of room for information if you are willing to spent the time.

...the SS handle
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A lot of people like the weight though, it makes the knife seem stronger and more substantial, plus to many it just appears cooler. Just look at the popularity of all Ti handles on knives like the Sebenza for example.

-Cliff
 
Some knives are 'beaters' from the very price point of their retail sticker asking price and may be quite useable but have very little of what I would call value. Value is something that is harder to take into account on high end 'collectibles' like Chris Reeve specials or even some of the production knives that are now discontinued. But to me it is not even something I associate with a cheap beater knife.


Personally I think of value in the terms of what something is worth after it is bought new. Kind of like a Toyota Landcruiser vs say a comparable Isuzu Trooper. Compare the used price of an 88 Toyota Landcruiser FJ62 to a 1988 Isuzu Trooper LS.

To me value is determined by whether an object will command a higher price used later should you need to sell it and is there demand for it if you did want to sell it? To me there is little value in a 'beater' bought for $8.00 new that you couldn't give away later if you needed a buck, even if it was in mint condition. However there is great value in a $43 knife that you could use for a year or more and then still sell for $35 on the used market later provided you didn't beat it to hell.
 
Call me crazy, but I don't think anything made with non-innovative communist labor is a good value.
 
Hi Ryan.

The "argument" over "short term value" vs "long term value" is the issue I think you speak of.

sal
 
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