Knife Recommendations for Kitchen Newbie

Lenny

Lenny

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Joined
Oct 15, 1998
Messages
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OK all, say I have $150-$200 max to spend on 3 kitchen knives:
- Chef's knife in the 8" range
- Paring knife
- Don't know what the most useful 3rd knife would be, your comment
Anyway, what 3 knives would you recommend?
If possible, let me know where I can buy them.
Thanks,
Lenny
 
If you don't know what you want for the third knife just get the first two and wait on
the third. What it should be depends on how *you* cook, not how I or anyone else
does.

I'd spend most of the money on a good chef's knife -- either a Japanese style gyuto
or a thin European carbon steel blade.
 
I got an 8" Whustof Classic back when I worked in the Culinary industry. It's not the "best" knife, but it has served me well. Thing is, as a "Newbie" I have to ask how you plan on storing you new knives.
I have a wooden knife block, and never ever have put my knives in a dishwasher or loose into a drawer. The fine edge will take damage from either of those.
If you are going to spend money on knives, make sure you protect that investment with at least some plastic edge covers.
Shun is a good place to start looking, search in the kitchen sub-forum here as well for other reviews. You may consider this..In my past I've jumped right in thinking one thing, just to realize I would have prefered something else. I got myself a Whustof Santoku and tried to use it, just to conclude that I don't use a knife like that very often, and could have lived without it. I should have gotten a cleaver instead.
Carbon steels are great, if you are willing to take some extra care. Leave food on them and you'll have rust spots for sure.
 
Dan Pierson said:
I'd spend most of the money on a good chef's knife -- either a Japanese style gyuto
or a thin European carbon steel blade.
Click to expand...

OK Dan, could you give me some recommendations as to mfr for the gyuto or European blade?


Foxx,
I already have a wood block.

Just did a little surfing and have a few more questions.
I looked at pix of the Gyuto and Santoku and boy are they different.
They're both described as the Japanese version of the Western Chef's knife, though.
Does one excel at something where the other lacks, or vice versa?
I also noticed that there are a few different shape for the paring knives.
Is one generally considered superior for the vast majority of paring tasks?
I know the differences in Carbon Steel vs SS for EDC knives, but what are the benefits of Carbon Steel
for cooking knives?
Can I use my Spyderco Sharpmaker to sharpen the Japanese blades?
Finally, is the Wa or Japanese handled version of the knives as comfortable in use as the more contoured
shapes of western knives?
BTW, my third knife will be a mid length Utility knife.
Thanks all,
Lenny
 
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I know the Santoku is meant to be used in a chopping motion, lifting the entire blade up with each chop. Versus a typical western chef knife which the tip stays on the board, while used in a rocking motion, or like a paper cutter.
In gerneral, carbon steels are just eaiser to sharpen. For kitchen knives they can react to acidic foods, they stain, and in some culinary institutions they just aren't allowed. To be honest, I've only heard of them not being allowed, never was told that by any employer that I had.
 
Great info Foxx.
Looks like I'd rather have a Gyuto then, most likely in Carbon Steel.
For a parer, would a SS blade be better?
Also, can you answer my other questions about the handle comfort of Western vs Japanese, and
sharpening?
Thanks.
Lenny
 
I mostly use a pinch grip on any of chef's knives, santokus or Chinese cleavers.
With that grip, I find that the handle shape is not all that important for comfort
(handle smoothness, etc. is still important). Some pinch grip users dislike
the more contoured handles though.

Japan Woodworker is one place to find a number of the Japanese style knives.
While a lot of them are out of your price range, some aren't.

I've found out that my own O1 and A2 carbon steel blades will hold a edge longer
with a sharper angle than any of my commercial stainless steel knives, including
the Shun parer (which tends to chip out if the angle is too sharp). My first
stainless kitchen knife is too new for me to have a good reading on how well it
will hold up.

Which knives perform better with rocking vs. push cutting is a matter of edge
profile (i.e. the 2D shape of the edge from the side), not overall knife style.
You can find chef's knives designed for push cutting and santoku's designed
for rocking so you need to look at the shape of the knife in question.

An Edge in the Kitchen explains a lot of this in much more detail.
 
We use the heck out of our bread knife, so for a 3rd knife, I'd probably recommend getting a bread knife.

You can get some good stuff. Since you describe yourself as a kitchen newbie, I think I'd go with the Victorinox/Forschner stuff, though. They are inexpensive, but they ain't junk. And...sorry, but I hate to see folks get high quality stuff ($150 to $200 can get you some real nice stuff) and destroy them through misuse (I have a friend that constantly cuts food on his plate with his super expensive knives...almost makes me want to cry).

You can buy Victorinox/Forschner all over. If possible, before you buy anything, I'd recommend going to a local store and holding them to see how they feel.
 
Already have a decent (Hoffritz) bread knife.
And we use it a lot too.
Also have (I'm almost ashamed to admit it) a Cutco serrated slicer.
Gotta say, it's one of our most used knives.
The blade is super thin and a tiny bit flexible.
The serrations make it sharp as hell.
And to top it off, the handle is nicely contoured and comfy.
Go figure.

Dan,
I went to Japan Woodworker to look at their Gyutos.
The only knives I found under or just over $100 are:
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=97%2E308%2E800&dept_id=13167

http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=12%2E224%2E18&dept_id=13167

http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=13%2E011%2E05&dept_id=13167

http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=11%2E011%2E05&dept_id=13167


Any of them look decent?
Which ones would be good for rocking cutting?

Lenny
 
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They all have potential. If I was going to order one of them I'd probably pick the second one however
the first and last have more of the sort of curved edge profile that you seem to want. The second and
last have a blue steel core, i.e. a carbon steel core. The other two are stainless steel cores.

So much of the final choice is based on what looks and feels comfortable to you.

BTW: I might also look at one of the following, though they're not really chef's knives and certainly don't
have a fine finish:

http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05%2E130%2E2&dept_id=13198
http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=05%2E131%2E9&dept_id=13198

I got myself this Tosagata deba in December. It's very functional
and does what I wanted it for quite well. Admittedly part of what I wanted it for was
to give me a reference point for the weight and proportions of a deba, but it sure does
a number on heavy winter squash.
 
Thanks again Dan.
The other 2 you link to, and the one you purchased don't seem
to have enough belly for how I want to use the knife (rocking cutting).
Looking at the first and last knives, the first one is quite a looker, but that's not everything.
And they both have different style/shape handles.
I am intrigued, however, by the shape of the point on the last knife.
Is there a specific reason for that shape?
Oh, and why would you pick the second knife in my list?
Finally, the primary use of this knife would be for cutting up veggies, and cubing meats.
Lenny
 
Hi,
You have a lot great questions. Here’s my 2 cents…

What 3 knives would you recommend?
A chef’s knife and a pairing or petty knife should take care of your general prep needs. The third knife should be whatever you need next. Check out the 8” Miyabi Kaizen chef’s knife at Sur La table. My wife and several of my friends have been using one for several months now and I’m aware a better knife in its’ price class. For a pairing knife, check out the Kuhn Rikon Colori for ~6 bucks available at TJ Maxx, HomeGoods, etc.or the mac pro (if you need to spend more).

Gyuto vs. Santoku

I believe Santokus were meant for applications where a larger, pointed tip knife would cause more harm than good. In general, they tend to be shorter in length (~180mm), and often have a blunted tip. The amount of edge curvature seems to vary per the maker. While some folks prefer them to a chef’s knife, I find a chef’s knife more versatile and more efficient.

A gyuto means chef’s knife in Japanese. Japanese knives generally are lighter, have thin / hard tempered blades, and a have slightly curved or mostly flat cutting edge. European knives, for the most are heavier, have thick / softer tempered blades, and have a more deeply curved cutting edge.

Pairing knife shapes…
I like the spear point shape ones. I think the other shapes are more tasks specific.

Carbon vs Stainless….

Carbon Steel, generally are easier to sharpen, take and hold a better edge than similar priced stainless steels, but are reactive to acidic foods and susceptible to rust.

Can I use my Spyderco Sharpmaker to sharpen the Japanese blades?

I’ve never used a sharpmaker.

Wa vs Yo (western handle)…

I’m with Dan. I use a pinch grip on most of knives and as long as the handle isn’t metal or obtrusive it doesn’t matter. However, I still value a secure, comfortable handle with boning knives and cleaver because I use a firmer, hammer-style grip with them.
 
I agree with you about the belly in the 2 I linked to. Just trying to show you some more options.

The one I bought is more a special purpose sharp cleaver than a chef's knife. I was NOT
recommending it for you -- just mentioned it to give you my impression of the maker.

The point on the last knife is common in some Japanese knives though it strikes me as more
like a santoku than a chef's knife. I don't know there is any perceived functional value to it
or if it's more a matter of style and a perception that the point isn't very important for its
intended use.

I'd pick the second knife because (1) I prefer blue (carbon) steel to VG-10 (see my previous
comments about this) and (2) the overall shape of the second knife suites my tastes.
Note that I am learning to prefer that the back several inches of the edge is flat because
that makes it very effective for easy push cutting. Teaching myself to make blades that
can keep this shape through sharpening when very thin is proving quite challenging.

Comparing the first and last from just the pictures is harder. Note that lots of people like
Shun knives and that they can work well if you don't sharpen them with too steep and
angle. The last knife has an inch shorter blade with a different shape. The important
question here is much more "Which shape would you be most comfortable with?" than
"Which knife has better steel?". (If you visit the maker forum you can read lots and lots
and lots of arguments about the second question :)).

Yep, cutting up veggies and meats is what I do most of too.
 
Awesome info gents!
Thank you so much.
$6 for a paring knife Looker?!?
I don't think I could bring myself to spend that little on a knife. :D
I will check it out.
I really like the Miyabi Kaizen chef’s knife.
Looks right up my alley.
Probably a stupid question, but what exactly is a pinch grip?
And Dan, why do you like Blue steel over VG10?
Finally, I still need an answer on sharpening with the Spyderco Sharpmaker.
Thanks a million guys.
Lenny
 
A pinch grip is where you hold the knife with the front part of your hand across
the blade/handle junction and your thumb and forefinger gripping the rear part
of the blade. Needs a wide blade like a chef's knife of course but you get a better
balance and more control for a lot of types of cutting.

I prefer carbon steel to VG10 because my carbon steel (A2 and O1) knives can
take a steeper sharpening angle without chipping than the VG10 and keep a
sharper edge longer. This is my experience in my kitchen, YMMV. Yes, the
carbon steel patinas and even rusts if mistreated but this doesn't bother me.
My specific viewpoint on blue steel vs. VG10 is completely based on the above.
I don't have enough experience with blue steel to have any opinion on it vs.
other carbon steels.
 
Thanks again Dan.
You guys are the best.
But I just thought of another question.
For knives that are laminated with a damascus outer cladding, is the damascus
SS or High Carbon?
Lenny
 
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With that budget, you can really buy two good knives. Many have been suggested by others. I would add Global, since I use them and I'm happy with them.
As for the "carbon steel vs stainless", I vote for stainless. I know you might be losing a bit in terms of edge retention and ease of sharpening, but I simply don't like the "metal" taste that carbon blades give to certain foods (especially fruit and vegetables). To me, in the kitchen, cutting is important but taste is more important than anything else.
It also depends alot on what you're used to (in terms of kitchen knives), and the whole idea behind these knives. You could, for instance, choose to experiment and buy a few Victorinox (and an Opinel paring knife) and try them out before you decide what blade shapes and size you like most...sometimes, it's not that obvious. I know people who cut absolutely everything with a 8" chef's knife and that aren't even willing to consider a change, while others like different styles for different tasks. It's not the same for everyone, and it also depends on what you are cooking and how.
With Victorinox, you would still be using very good quality knives and take the whole thing as an experiment. And maybe found out that, among the 4 or 5 knives that you bought, two of them will wn and you won't feel the need of anything else.
On the other hand, if you've cut and cooked enough in your life, you might already be sure that a chef's and a paring knives are the best choice for you. Then, maybe it could be good to spend money on Shun or other higher end knives.

:cool:
 
7" Chef (Gyuto) Dojo #1 Blue Steel Knife- Kobayashi. I have this knife and it is crazy good at cutting every thing, its the most used knife in the kitchen! It also sharpens very easy and holds the edge a long time and priced right at CKTG !!!

Brian E.
 
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