Knife + Rock = FIRE

abo4ster

abo4ster

Joined
Aug 24, 2003
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As a follow-up to the why not stainless (knife) question, I made the videos below to show how most carbon knives and a sharp rock with high glass content can generate a spark to lead to fire. Stainless cannot do this. It should be noted this is not by any means recommended as a primary method for creating fire, but another arrow in your quiver regarding your relationship with fire. For survival purposes you should carry several modern methods of a heat source and tinder.

While we are talking about yet another method of ignition, I would like to take this opportunity to remind you it is only one-third of the fire equation. Fire takes heat, fuel, and oxygen. We tend to focus so much on the heat (ignition) part of the equation we take for granted the other two-thirds. Yes, we make PJ cotton balls, fire straws, etc.; and we should carry those for when the need arises. However, we should be proficient in making tinder bundles out of natural materials, even in a damp environment. In sum, don’t forget to practice the other two-thirds with natural materials – someone’s life may depend on it.

Also, sorry for the low quality videos, they were actually done with a digital camera that has video capability. It is also hard to see the sparks and coal because of the sunlight; hence the last video is included…


Part One is making sparks with three different knives to demonstrate how to hold the knife and strike it against the rock. This is much like the percussion method of flint knapping. I keep the same stroke with my knife hand having my elbow locked in place against my side. I move my left hand into the place it needs to be. I didn’t note this in the video, so I mention the technique here.

http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn230/abodude/?action=view&current=KnifeRockFireOne.flv


Part Two is making fire with a natural tinder bundle. My heat source in the video is the char cloth, but just as well could have been a coal from a hand or bow drill, magnesium scrapings I hit with a ferro rod, or sunlight focused through a lens.

http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn230/abodude/?action=view&current=KnifeRockFireTwo.flv


This last video was done in low light and shows what you can get in terms of sparks with a knife and rock. Note that they are not white hot. That makes this method limited to all but the best tinder in my very limited experience.

http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn230/abodude/?action=view&current=P3190030.flv


Primitively yours,

Quiet Bear
 
QB,

Awesome! I bow my head in deference to you. I was quite wrong in my assessment.

Thanks for correcting a myth that I perpetuated. It really does work.

Kudos, brother! :thumbup:
 
Excellent post, Quiet Bear! I know how difficult it is to capture the limited sparks on camera (been there, done that). You managed to demonstrate it all very clearly and commendably. Good stuff! :thumbup:

Thanks for correcting a myth that I perpetuated. It really does work.
Click to expand...

A sharp stainless edge will work with a ferro rod, but not with stone. Lots of folks get confused on this one. The carbon knife and quartz-like stone is essentially the frizzen and flint on a flintlock action. The bits of metal shaved off by the stone are super heated by friction creating the spark.
 
Bear it takes me a lot longer to catch the spark! Thanks for sharing your expertise.

...Scott
 
I just didn't think it worked with stone. Maybe I was too worried about my knives to do it properly. ;)

I still wouldn't use this method except as last resort, as QB also stated in his video.
 
Brian Jones said:
I just didn't think it worked with stone. Maybe I was too worried about my knives to do it properly. ;)

I still wouldn't use this method except as last resort, as QB also stated in his video.
Click to expand...

I wont do it either unless i had to but have tested folding knives and a mora fixed blade in the past but with a fixed blade i have the fear of losing a finger! That's why i keep flint and steel (the real ones) in my blackpowder bags and usually have a magnesium bar and steel on my person for non traditional camp and hunts. Bear makes it look extremely easy with a fixed blade!
 
I've done the same with a carbon mora, as well as a tramontina machete. I normally stick with a ferro rod, but try to keep my friction and percussion skills in order as well.:thumbup::thumbup:
 
I ruined a Shrade bear paw trying that. I thought the flint was suppose to spark , not the steel.
 
Quiet Bear, you are the man! Never thought to strike a spark that way.:thumbup:
 
Awesome videos! Very informative and well articulated! I'm surprised the Klippe guy hasn't asked you to put this on Klippe yet.

In order to do this though, do you have to have char cloth?
 
There's a bushcraft/survival video where Michel Blomgren loses his ferro rod, finds quartz, breaks off a piece, and uses it to make a spark with his knife and start a fire (to boil water in a plastic bag!)... to name just one of many videos which show it can be done.

Quiet bear, thanks for the video. I've been wanting to master this technique, and your post and video are the most instructional I've seen around.

If you didn't have prepared charcloth with you, could you start a fire from flint and steel with only found tinders? If yes, I'd like to hear your experiences about catching a flint and steel spark with found tinders. Can you do it with fatwood? Cedar bark? Thistle down? Polypore fungi?
 
I had a Scout Master when I was a kid that worked with us on our camping merit badge. One of the things he had us make was a fire kit. He helped us put it together with a small Opinel knife that cost about $2, char cloth, hemp rope and a piece of flint. It was always a back up and I did not mind using the back of my Opinel to make a spark. It worked for us on a Klondike Derby in about 5 feet of snow. So don't be afraid of finding a cheap high cabon folder to use as a back up. By the way we would strike the flint with the knife closed. No need to worry about getting cut or getting a good grip on the knife.
 
Awesome! Quiet Bear, could I put those videos on The Wilderness Wiki?

I'll have to pay more attention to rocks as I go along. I've always sort of considered this as something possible but impractical -guess I was wrong :)
 
there are two types of sparks if you will the low temp sparks like those that come from the carbonsteel/flint type of sparkmakers if i remember they are about 7-800 degrees, the other typpe is the ferro rod spark, which is much hotter like 1400 degrees. that is why you need the char cloth for the the steel/flint method. char clothe has a much lower kindling temperature than regular cotton, the char cloth is "coked" that is combusted in a low oxygen environment to leave a high carbon residual that has the lower kindling temperature than the original cloth from which it is made. it is needed to use the low temp sparking method.

alex
 
alco141 said:
there are two types of sparks if you will the low temp sparks like those that come from the carbonsteel/flint type of sparkmakers if i remember they are about 7-800 degrees, the other typpe is the ferro rod spark, which is much hotter like 1400 degrees. that is why you need the char cloth for the the steel/flint method. char clothe has a much lower kindling temperature than regular cotton, the char cloth is "coked" that is combusted in a low oxygen environment to leave a high carbon residual that has the lower kindling temperature than the original cloth from which it is made. it is needed to use the low temp sparking method.

alex
Click to expand...

If anyone wants more information on char cloth, the Wilderness Wiki has a great article with photos and a video:

Char Cloth on Klippe
 
I saw a video clip where this guy out to demonstrate firemaking and survival in the snow loses his firesteel, rod, or whatever and remembers from previous hikes in the area during summer months the location a large quartz rock. He finds the rock in the snow, breaks off a piece and uses it and a carbon steel knife to start a fire.
 
alco is right, the spark is to weak from this method to ignite tinders you can normally get from a ferro rod.

Evolute/Stingray, I have not had success outside of charred material. From a surival standpoint, I would rank being able to create fire by friction way above this method (maybe a next video - note to self ~ learn to edit)

However, I find it's value to be very high from a practice standpoint. Being able to make a coal so readily allows for quick practice of blowing tinder bundles to flame (hopefully).

Charred material such as cotton cloth and linen have been used for thousands of years. It was the primary way mountian men started fires less than two centuries ago. And it need not be made of cloth, here is a great article about making charred cattail down.
http://www.dirttime.com/cattail char.html

CanDo, please feel free to post.
 
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