Knife Shows~Do we need them?

[Kevin Jones]

Well the winter knife show season is over now that Reno, Arkansas, Las Vegas, ECCKS and others are behind us. A little break before Solvang then of course the Blade Show.

I really enjoy the shows, always attend three and try to make it to four during the year.
IMO, knife shows are one of the best ways for a collector to acquire and learn about knives. I have picked up ordered knives at shows but have also bought quite a few very nice pieces at good prices. There are those who will say all the good knives are sold before the show or you have to be in “the loop” to get them. If you do the legwork such as calling makers a couple weeks before, deciding which you are most interested in and GET TO THE SHOW EARLY you can be very successful in getting great knives from your favorite makers. Or you can just complain about why you don’t go to shows.

Lots of talk about shows recently with the Reno ABS Expedition moving to San Antonio in August 09, and even though attendance seems to be holding up at recent shows there’s been uncertainty over if knife sales are doing the same. There’s talk/rumors about established makers taking knives home.

Do you think this is the result of the economy or are there are just too many shows or too many other avenues for collectors to buy knives? Or is it simply not true?

Shows are expensive to attend in many cases, however in my opinion it’s in the best interest of new collectors to attend a Blade Show or at least good size regional show before they start buying knives.

I imagine a maker and/or dealer’s show expenses averages around a $1,000 per show including transportation to/from, hotel, food, table fee and lost production in the shop.

In my opinion there’s much more to shows that buying knives. I didn’t buy any knives in Reno this year however it was one I enjoyed the most.

Are you losing interest in shows or do you enjoy them more than ever?

Are there too many shows?

Collectors have you been successful or even interested in acquiring show knives or would you rather just order and wait for them?

Do you usually attend with buying in mind or just to browse?

So do we collectors or the industry even need shows?

Would you rather makers and dealers just save the money they spend attending shows and past it on as discounts to collectors as we just order knives and/or buy off the internet?

One thing for sure, there will only be shows as long as collectors attend, buy knives so the makers can rent tables so promoters can continue to be financially able to put on the shows.

 

[2knife]

I decided a few years ago to stop going to gun shows, for knives. Don't regret this decision at all.
Also, because this is somewhat obsessive, it is good to take a break Once in a while.

I go to Blade and sometimes the Pigeon Forge show. Blade, especially fun for the seminars, events, just being there to see what's happening. I look forward to it all year.

From another perspective, i have heard the cost of tables is high, some no longer can justify the expense of it. Does it go up every year or tend to stay relatively fixed?-- a dealer/ maker question.
David

 

[Win Heger]

t orAre you losing interest in shows or do you enjoy them more than ever?

I enjoy the shows I attend as much as ever. If I wasn't so lazy I'd attend more.

Are there too many shows?

Way too many. The demand on "A" list makers is not good for cllectors with outstanding orders.

Collectors have you been successful or even interested in acquiring show
knives or would you rather just order and wait for them?

Mostly just order and wait for them. The lottery system works well, though.

Do you usually attend with buying in mind or just to browse?

I go with the thought that I'm not coming home with a knife. It's very hard today to get a good piece at a show that doesn't have drawings. The "evening be for dealing" and pre show buying by dealers and maker's friends has ruined it for a normal collector!

So do we collectors or the industry even need shows?

I really enjoy the shows, meeting makers and seeing friends. I think it would be a long year without any shows. The makers are the one's that need the shows, where would they be if people couldn't see their work. I'd hate to have to depend on the Internet and dealers.

Would you rather makers and dealers just save the money they spend attending shows and past it on as discounts to collectors as we just order knives and/or buy off the internet?

No. And I don't think one penny would be passed on!

Win

 

[Kevin Jones]

David, I would imagine that table fees vary quite a bit from show to show. I would imagine the Blade Show is probably the most expensive, but then it's without question the best knife show in the world.

Perhaps a maker or dealer can shed some light on this subject. Also this is a touchy subject, but do some makers get free tables or even get paid for showing up? Happens regularly in other venues.

 

[Danbo]

Yes! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Les Robertson]

Kevin,

Well knife show season is over now that Reno, Arkansas, Las Vegas, ECCKS and others are behind us.

Yea here we are, second week of March and it's over.

Except for:

Blade Show
Blade West
Guild shown
Chicago Custom Knife Show
Spirit of Steel Show
Dan Delavan's Invitational
New York Custom Knife Show

Kevin, you focus on your very high end and selective collection is shining brightly with this post.

Still can't believe you wrote the show season is over for the year.

Without the shows and the interaction with other knife enthusiasts the custom knife market would wither.

One of the things that collector enjoy most is talking with the makers in person and other collectors.

Sales are down at shows for makers for one reason...the same reason it has always been.

1) They make knives they like for themselves

2) They don't know their position in the market and subsequently price their knives wrong.

The recession is going to hit these makers first. As collectors will adapt the buying strategies. After market (investment) potential will come into play more than it ever has.

The buyers will start to look a little harder for "value pricing". Those old Mastermsiths who feel they should get a lot of money because they are an old Mastersmith. Will find themselves taking more and more knives home.

Why? Because the new MS and JS makers (in some cases) are doing it better for less money.

Shows allow side by side comparisons that the Internet or photos don't allow. That may be the favorite aspect of my table for collectors.

Shows offer a social aspect that the Internet cannot.

I thought I would be seeing you at the Blade Show this year. But since your show season is over...perhaps Little Rock in 09. I have to say I am stunned that you won't be at the Blade Show or the Fisk Micro-Show.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[Kevin Jones]

I go with the thought that I'm not coming home with a knife. It's very hard today to get a good piece at a show that doesn't have drawings. The "evening be for dealing" and pre show buying by dealers and maker's friends has ruined it for a normal collector![/B]

Win

Win thanks. I agree with everything except about not being able to get a good piece.
I bought one of the nicest Hancock Fighters I have ever seen at the Blade Show about 4:00pm on a Friday afternoon that I later sold at a handsome profit.

Last year or possibly the year before Ed Fowler had a bag full of knives. I don't know Ed's policy regarding multiple sales to a single buyer, however I could have purchased a 1/2 dozen of a variety of styles after a couple of hours into the show. Jay Hendrickson usually has beautiful examples for easy purchase and I think his waiting list is probably up to five years now. Harvey Dean and Larry Fuegen's knives can usually be purchased.

Now true, before Roger reminds me I'm looking at mostly ABS knives which are only a part of the mix. But can't imagine there are not good knives available in the other categories.

 

[Don Hanson III]

David, I would imagine that table fees vary quite a bit from show to show. I would imagine the Blade Show is probably the most expensive, but then it's without question the best knife show in the world.

Perhaps a maker or dealer can shed some light on this subject. Also this is a touchy subject, but do some makers get free tables or even get paid for showing up? Happens regularly in other venues.

Kevin, I have never heard of a maker getting a free table or being paid to attend.

A table at ECCKS cost $750, a table at blade is $425-$450.

Costs me around $2500 to attend a NY show, around $1200 to attend Blade and Chicago. This doesn't count ivory purchases

I sell out at Blade and usually bring knives home from NY.

I love knife shows and will continue to attend two or three per year.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

So do we collectors or the industry even need shows?

QUOTE]

Absolutely - how is the "industry" going to continue without new customers?
I'm sure there are many new enthusiasts generated by the huge amount of digital/online info these days, simply by discovering man-made knives by accident!
But nothing NOTHING takes the place of holding a knife in your hand.
I'm sure there are many, many people who attend the voluminous number of knife shows for the first time who have never even considered hand made knives.
Somebody says, "Hey Bill! There's a Knife show in town! Wanna go with me?" "A knife show? Sure!"
Now Bill is a new knife customer putting money in some maker's pocket.
Without shows, we have no future.

 

[Don Hanson III]

My show season is just fixin to start

Kevin, didn't you say the Blade show was the one that got you into custom knives? Like has been said, we need shows to help bring in new collectors.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Win,

The "evening be for dealing" and pre show buying by dealers and maker's friends has ruined it for a normal collector!

1) I have never seen a dealer or collector hold a gun to a makers head to sell them a knife before the show opens. All the maker has to say is "no".

Win, the makers and no one else has ruined this aspect for you.

2) No sale is ever guaranteed at the show.

3) The main reason collectors bitch about your sentence in quotes is that they want all the knives in the room so they can take their time and pick their favorite.

The reality is, they are not willing to commit to spending the dollars with a maker. subsequently, the knife gets sold to someone show is.

BTW...define "Normal Collector".

Win, for what it is worth, I seldom if ever, buy knives the night before the show. Matter of fact at shows if a maker does sell me a knife before the doors open, I will leave it on their table so collectors can see it and handle it and possibly place an order.

As well, I will let makers know I am interested in a particular knife and if it doesn't sell I will take it...if it does sell I want to place an order for that knife.

I wrote this to point out that your use of "dealers" in the above sentence is a generalization and is not 100% accurate. As such you should probably reword the sentence to say something like...If makers wouldn't sell knives before the show opened (probably to cover their show expenses and to provide money to buy materials to make more knives) the "SOME DEALERS" and "SOME COLLECTORS" wouldn't be afforded the opportunity to buy knives from "SOME MAKERS" who offer them before the show opens.

Another question Win: If the makers don't sell knives prior to the show opening (as some promoters insist on) and the collectors decide there is nothing on the tables they like and/or can afford. Should the Promoter be be held for lack of sales. As such refund the table cost, and pay for the Hotel room to help defray costs of attending the show?

If the answer is no...then the same promoter should not expect not to sell the knives when the opportunity presents itself.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[Don Hanson III]

The economy has never effected my knife sales.

The media blows this 'slow economy thing' way out of proportion.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,



Yea here we are, second week of March and it's over.

Except for:

Blade Show
Blade West
Guild shown
Chicago Custom Knife Show
Spirit of Steel Show
Dan Delavan's Invitational
New York Custom Knife Show

Kevin, you focus on your very high end and selective collection is shining brightly with this post.

Still can't believe you wrote the show season is over for the year.

Without the shows and the interaction with other knife enthusiasts the custom knife market would wither.

One of the things that collector enjoy most is talking with the makers in person and other collectors.

Sales are down at shows for makers for one reason...the same reason it has always been.

1) They make knives they like for themselves

2) They don't know their position in the market and subsequently price their knives wrong.

The recession is going to hit these makers first. As collectors will adapt the buying strategies. After market (investment) potential will come into play more than it ever has.

The buyers will start to look a little harder for "value pricing". Those old Mastermsiths who feel they should get a lot of money because they are an old Mastersmith. Will find themselves taking more and more knives home.

Why? Because the new MS and JS makers (in some cases) are doing it better for less money.

Shows allow side by side comparisons that the Internet or photos don't allow. That may be the favorite aspect of my table for collectors.

Shows offer a social aspect that the Internet cannot.

I thought I would be seeing you at the Blade Show this year. But since your show season is over...perhaps Little Rock in 09. I have to say I am stunned that you won't be at the Blade Show or the Fisk Micro-Show.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

Roger, I mean Les , I wrote Season as in winter Season, the spring will bring Solvang then summer Blade and so on and on. Perhaps I could have been clearer.

All rest good points, especially the part about about meeting and seeing makers, dealers, collectors of which many are friends. Like a big party.

But still, when it gets to the point where a maker or dealer is not selling enough to make expenses many will stop renting tables. Was surprised to learn of a maker the other day that's not going.

 

[RogerP]

Kevin, you focus on your very high end and selective collection is shining brightly with this post.

Still can't believe you wrote the show season is over for the year.

Man, I was thinking the same thing? Show season over? Might as well tell me that winter is over as I head out for another round of shovelling.

To answer some question:

Are you losing interest in shows or do you enjoy them more than ever?

I enjoy them as much as ever - but haven't been able to attend as many as I would like.

Are there too many shows?

There will only be too many shows when there aren't enough makers and collectors to make each one a reasonable success. I don't attend enough of them to be able to comment. The shows I have attended have all been well attended on both sides of the table.

Collectors have you been successful or even interested in acquiring show knives or would you rather just order and wait for them?

I've been successful in both avenues. At shows, the number of knives I would like to buy has always exceeded the sumber of knives I am able to buy.
Do you usually attend with buying in mind or just to browse?

Both.
So do we collectors or the industry even need shows?

Yes. There is no virtual replacement for being able to contemporaneously view and handle several examples of the work of several different makers - not to mention interact with and ask questions of the makers themselves.

Would you rather makers and dealers just save the money they spend attending shows and past it on as discounts to collectors as we just order knives and/or buy off the internet?

NO!

Roger

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Win:

Way too many. The demand on "A" list makers is not good for cllectors with outstanding orders.

Win, you are limiting yourself to what "YOU" consider "A" list makers.

As well today's "B" list maker is tomorrow's "A" list maker. Obviously all the "A" list makers didn't start out as "A" list makers.

If I were you I would no longer support these makers as it is obvious they don't care about your feelings about attending shows and introducing their work to new collectors, increasing the demand, creating a second generation of collector s (So when you decide to retire and sell your collection there are an eager group of collectors willing to pay you more than you paid for the knives). What a group of low lifes they are. Why would you possibly "Wait" for a knife from this type of maker?????

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[Kevin Jones]

Way too many. The demand on "A" list makers is not good for cllectors with outstanding orders.
Win

Les hits on a good point here and kind of references the point I was trying to get across recently regarding the possibility that we as collectors have too many knives on order?

As it's my opinion (looking big picture) that it's more important that makers attend shows to promote themselves and by doing so promote customs knives in general than filling orders. We will ALL benefit from this.

Sometimes we as collectors (myself included) concentrate too much on us and our collections to see the big picture of growing the industry.

 

[Win Heger]

You make a couple of good points, as usual, Les. However, I'm not going to rewrite my response, I think most people reading this understand my point.

Ok, "normal collector": the guy that drives 100 miles to the show, gets in line and rushes to his favorite makers table at opening only to find everything taken.

I could exercise some pull and have access like others, I choose not to and consequently enjoy complaining. I've witnessed some absolutely pathetic performances by dealers attempting to acquire knives. A couple of years ago at Solvang it was so bad I seriously considered not buying anymore custom knives.

You are 100% correct about makers being able to say "no" and I know of a few who have. Very few, though.

The last part about makers blaming promoters for lack of sales doesn't work for me. The last day, the last hour is bargain time for collectors and dealers. Unless the maker is not yet established or decided pink G10 and blue Girfaffe bone is what he's using from here on, they will not go home with knives.

I tended to make generalizations and can be held accountable for that. Kevin, your examples of available knives is well taken, it does happen but not often.

Win

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Kevin,

Have to admit I have never hear it refereed to as the "Winter Show Season".

But still, when it gets to the point where a maker or dealer is not selling enough to make expenses many will stop renting tables. Was surprised to learn of a maker the other day that's not going.

Kevin, what is the radical concept you are discussing??? Yes, that crazy concept...making enough profit to cover your expenses. What kind of kind of "outside the box" thinking is this.

So you mean that if a maker brought the right knives, at the right price and could sell enough of them at a show. To create a profit that would cover the show expenses and at the same time perhaps create a little extra money to be spent on materials and/or paying for the show table next year?

You sir...are Mad as a Hatter! LOL

Ok, all the makers turn away and don't look at this next sentence, this is just between Kevin and I:

Kevin what you are proposing is that makers look at attending shows with a "business" approach. As you know full well, we try not to use the "B" word around makers. As it makes the "artist" side of the brain go into full assault on those who would use the "B" word in their presence. Shhhhh.......

Remember (and you may want to write this down), at shows if you must approach the "artist", do so with low tones and do not make direct eye contact. Only (and remember this is very important) praise the work...for god sakes do not point out flaws, as this only puts the artist on the defensive. While drawing as little attention to yourself as possible ask the price. Once the price is given and you realize you don't want to buy it, remember to once again praise the artists work while setting the knife down. Then at the first opportunity (as to not draw the direct ire of the artist) move away from the table. Again, remember low tones and "NO EYE CONTACT". Keep facing the maker as with the older ones with poorer depth perception this will confuse them for a few seconds as they will think you are still standing at the table.

The absolute best exit strategy you can apply will be another person looking at the knife and start to praise the artist. This will allow you the cleanest get away. Backing into a crowd as it passes is also a good strategy (although more difficult to execute after the first day of the show...although this strategy can be executed on Saturday, at a show like Blade, between the hours of 11am and 3PM).

Remember do not tease the artists as they will become angered and talk bad about you at dinner that evening. He/She will say things like "Kevin looked at my knife and told me it was great and then just put it down and walked away, I thought for sure he was going to "BUY" the knife.

Ah, and there it is. The first sighting of that part of the brain that is buried deep within the artists brain....the business of the transaction! You see at night after a long day of being patted on the head (the LOVE) and no sales. They become angered and confused, looking for someone to blame...The damn promoter...didn't advertise enough (remember the artists never advertises)...the Economy or Gas prices kept them from buying my knife, perhaps but more likely the knife was over priced. My table location in the show. Perhaps, but as most collectors will walk the whole show...is this really a reason?

As Win alluded to earlier it is always best to catch the "artist" at night, when they are the most vulnerable. As in Win's example the night before the show. It is there in a weakened state they can be tricked into submission...using a shiny coin..or even better a $100 bill (several if necessary). This will cause an override option to occur in the "artists" brain and make him forget about his promise to the promoter to put knives on the table tomorrow morning.

It can be tricky, but with practice you can utilize these advanced tactics and truly only buy the knives you want. LOL


Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[Win Heger]

Kevin, makers with x number of years and building waiting lists should not be adding shows every year. The promoters want these makers because they believe it enhances the quality of their show understandable. I know of a few makers that have cut back a show or two because they feel obligated to their collector base to put knives in their hands. I applaud these folks.

My point is that everyone wants a winner and the Internet has spawned a lot of instant winners. These makers are blessed with long backlogs of orders that need to be filled in a timely manner. I think, without naming names, guys can jump to the "A" list without a whole lot of "time in grade". They can disappear almost as fast!

My personal buying habits are very eclectic. I have very few knives that will ever turn a profit and I'm fine with that. Especially when my wife gets a table at the local flea market and sells my stuff.

Win

Win

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin, makers with x number of years and building waiting lists should not be adding shows every year. The promoters want these makers because they believe it enhances the quality of their show understandable. I know of a few makers that have cut back a show or two because they feel obligated to their collector base to put knives in their hands. I applaud these folks.

My point is that everyone wants a winner and the Internet has spawned a lot of instant winners. These makers are blessed with long backlogs of orders that need to be filled in a timely manner. I think, without naming names, guys can jump to the "A" list without a whole lot of "time in grade". They can disappear almost as fast!

My personal buying habits are very eclectic. I have very few knives that will ever turn a profit and I'm fine with that. Especially when my wife gets a table at the local flea market and sells my stuff.

Win

Win

Well said and good points. :thumbup: