knife temper problems

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perrymanknifeworks

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i have recently hardened and tempered about 8 knives in an oven, but the oven was left on for nearly 7 hours. does the steel still have a good harden or is the temper ruined. the oven was set for 350 degrees?
 
Won't hurt a thing, but that's a pretty low heat for a temper. What steel?
 
Welcome to the forums, Mr Perryman!

Like the others said... it won't hurt at all. I agree with LRB... 350F is okay for a snap temper but should be way to low for anything final. What is your HT'g process?
 
I'll post, once again, that if the last statement is true, then your profile is false.

Nothing wrong with using a charcoal chimney to do a few simple knives and guess at the HT,as well as using files and old springs for metal.
But stating that your occupation is a knifemaker is a bit of a stretch with such experience, equipment, and materials.

Welcome to the BF, and please ask any questions you wish. There are a lot of great folks here. Just be honest about your age and occupation.
 
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As the father of this poster of this question, I am a little concerned if he has joined the right forum. When he came across this tempering problem, I encouraged him to find a forum and ask the question from more experienced Knife Makers. He is only 12 years old, I don't see where he mislead anyone with his age. I can see where he was being a little creative with his "Occupation" of knife maker, but right now, other than school, he lives, eats and breathes knife making so I guess that sort of is his occupation right now! I was hoping he was going to join a group that would encourage him to grow in this neat hobby. Yes, he uses coffee cans and charcoal and other cheap tools we have made together or bought on a limited budget. But he has made some damn fine knives with what he has had to work with. He didn't want to tell his age because he didn't feel he would be taken seriously by you older more experienced guys. Thank you to the guys who answered his questions with out being judgemental! Hopefully, this is the place but if not...have a good one!
 
12 years old? Thats great :) Welcome and do your homework, there are a ton of information in the stickies on this forum you will learn a lot.
 
Hello Perryman's father. I think it is awesome that you are encouraging your son to pursue his passion for bladesmithing. It is important for us to know who we are talking to for several reasons. Obviously, age has a lot to do with it. We can be a colourful bunch and even though most of the forums are family oriented some of us push the envelope. It is only natural that we would address a 12yr old different than an adult. That is not to say he doesn't deserve respect as a budding knifemaker. We have members who are knife collectors, users, hobbyists, part-time makers, full-time makers, educators and teachers of the teachers! They all contribute in their own way. We need to know where you stand so we can address you at that level. I cannot blame Stacy(Bladsmth) who is also our forum moderator for asking those questions. I felt we were dealing with a young person as well. We try to represent ourselves honestly and with all due respect your son is not a career knifemaker... nor is he at that experience level, YET. This is not an age issue. We are getting pretty good at reading into experience levels based on the answer provided. All we ask for is honesty. Your son is already ahead of the game at his age.

I think you should have a look around the forums too, sir.
 
I hit most new makers/posters with this.

I believe that you can advance much more quickly using known steel.

If you have made some, show the pics we love knife pics.



I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions on how to make a knife. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V22

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe doesn't.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better for some steels.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. I just post this as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.
If you use water or brine, expect to have a cracked or broken blade.
Search the work "tink" for more info


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package of slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Files can be made from unhardenable steel, or steel similar to 1095 that needs a difficult HT
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Don't believe me? google "Ed Caffrey lung cancer" and see what he has to say about it.

The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
There are also prefilters that snap over the main filter for longer life.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only & works better than the forum search.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V22 Dec 1, 2011.

Countavatar.jpg
 
Perryman and father,
I am a high school student. While this hobby is very friendly to younger people, different advice applies depending on age, experience, situation, and budget. once those things are established, we will be able to give you much more accurate and helpful advice. Feel free to e-mail me with any questions. I might also be able to help you with materials. I am personally a high school junior, living on a farm, learning, and on a very low budget.
 
Mr. Perryman,
Thank you for posting, and for supporting your son in his learning efforts. As a maker, I am glad to see young people take an interest in learning.

As Moderator of this forum, and thus a representative of Bladeforums, I have to inform you that your sons membership may soon be canceled. He is underage, and posted false information about his age when he registered. COPPA does not allow anyone under 13 to join this site. I will forward this thread and the information you posted to the Super-mod and see what he decides, but we can not legally give advise to a 12 year old....it is a federal Law.

I am locking this thread now.
 
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