Knife to STORE? Why not FREEZE it...? (with poll)

Longterm storage of valuable knife you do not use. Freeze them?

  • Freeze it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No need (this is harmfull or is of no use)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
Joined
Sep 21, 2002
Messages
249
I was wandering... If you do not use a knife for a long time... how should you store it...

I was thinking: clean it real good (first hot water and soap) then alcohol, dry it real real good, apply Tuff-Glide or something, wrap it in clean, soft oily rags. Put the entire heap in a sealable bag or box, make sure it's air-thight. Put that in the freezer.

The freezer, all that water (ice...)! Are you crazy man...?! No problem, in fact your freezer is likely to be the dryest place in your home: all the water freezes. The air-humidity is almost not-existent. The low temperatures slow down any chemical reactions. The knife is in a very constant environment, away from harmfull elements...

If you take it out, let it regain "room-temperature" slowly and air it good. Cold steel will attract condesation.

Poll: good idea or not?

Bye!
 
Nahh, I think a display case would work good enough for me. I could never bring myself to freeze them :rolleyes:
 
Most freezers automatically defrost. That means they heat up (yes, your freezer actually has a heating coil built into it) and melt off any ice buildup on the walls. And where does that water go? Into the air inside the freezer, that's where.

Also remember that water is one of the most unique substances in God's creation. Among it's many marvels, water has a characteristic called "tripple pointing." Tripple pointing means that it can exist as a solid, liquid, and gas at the same time in the same place and at the same temperature. Amazing, I know. This happens inside your freezer. It's why your ice cubes slowly shrink.

Bottom line, the inside of your freezer isn't as dry as you think.

Now, as long as you've got me in Dr. Science mode, let me assert something that will be contrary to what you often think: water does not cause rust. Quite to the contrary, in fact. Recently, artifacts were recovered from the wreckage of the Titanic. They are without rust.

Rust is oxidation. Iron bonds with oxygen forming Iron Oxide, the redish brown flakey, powdery substance we call rust. Something like 23% of the air around us is oxygen. So, when iron or iron alloys are exposed to ordinary room air, the iron oxidizes and rust forms. If the object is in water, then the water will keep the air away from the iron.

Ah, but practical experience tells us that knives left in water are significantly more likely to rust. The problem is that most water is not pure. Most water has oxygen dissolved into it. Yes, just as you can dissolve salt or sugar into water, you can dissolve oxygen into it too. This is how fish get the oxygen they need. If you keep a fish tank, you probably have a little pump that bubbles air into the water. Some of the oxygen in that air dissolves into the water as the bubbles rise through the water.

It is this oxygen in the water that rusts metal. Water just brings the oygen into a more intimate contact with the metal and thus accellerates the rust process.

As you go deeper and deeper in the ocean, the oxygen concentration of the water becomes lower and lower. That's why those bits from the Titanic weren't rusted hardly at all.

What's the point (this is a knife discussion, so I have to mention point)? The best place to store your knives would be deep on the floor of the ocean, that's my point!

Ah, but for most of us that is not practical.

The real point of my discussion is your enemy is not water, it's oxygen. If we want to avoid the formation of iron oxide -- rust -- then we either have to get the iron out of our blades or we have to get the oxygen out of our environment.

Sometimes, museums try the later approach by putting precious artifacts like those Titanic pieces into display cases pressurized with nitrogen. This is the "gold standard" for storing artifacts. Unfortunately, it's very expensive.

The other option I offered was to take the iron out of the blades. Unfortuntaely, without getting even more technical then we already are, iron is an important part of what makes a knife take and hold a good edge. An iron-free blade that's strong and yet not to brittle, and that takes and retains a good edge has been the holy grail of knife making since the beginning of time itself. Recently, Talonite and a couple of other new alloys have come darn close.

There is a third option. If we can't take the oygen out of the environment and if we can't take the iron out of the steel, then maybe we can at least keep the two separated. And that's what the time-honored practice of putting thin layer of oil on a blade does. The oil separates the iron in the steel from the oxygen in the air.

There are three problems with oil. Frist, it remains a liquid at most common temperatures and thus it remains runny. Over time, it will yield to gravity and run down off the blade. Second, it's messy and leaves a messy film on the blade. And, third, it does, itself, slowly, oxidize.

Another good option is wax. A thin, transparent layer of wax will harden on the blade and separate the iron from the oxygen. Wax also, slowly, oxidizes, true. But, a good wax will last a long time.

And there is one final option. What we're dealing with here is a chemical reaction: iron reacting with oxygen. Maybe we can add a third chemical that will inhibit this reaction? That's what products like Tuff Cloth try to do. But, experinece has shown that these products and the processes of applying them are not yet perfect.

So, there you have it: the science behind refrigerators and storing blades.

Remember: I have a Master's Degree... In Science and the Sciences.
 
You don't only have a point, you prove it too. Solid reply, good reasoning. Thanks for your insights!
 
Cool. But I'm curious about something. Why does salt water corrode metal more quickly than fresh? There's less dissolved oxygen in saltwater than freshwater (I know this from my aquarium keeping days). Is the sodium directly responsible as an oxidizing agent, or is does it play transporter to oxygen somehow?
 
Its complicated. Salt isn't just "salt" and salt water isn't just salt and water. Sodium, the element (Na) can't oxidize iron, its higher in the activity series.
With oxidation, you basically have a solid metal, and one dissolved in water. If the solid is less reactive, it will give up electrons and decompose, as the dissolved metal gains electrons and forms a solid. So depending on the actual "salts" in the water, it can be very corrosive to iron. Thats why iron, and other metals left around salt water get a film over them/ deposits of things on them. Its not the same type deal as oxygen making something rust/oxidize.

And then with the salt water, you still have oxygen dissolved in the water so thats going on too. Basically,with salt water you have more than one thing working on the iron at once, so corrosion happens faster.

Its complicated and confusing. Maybe someone else, who didn't just almost fail a midterm in chemistry, can explain it better.
 
Good point there, I haven't got a clue either.

As I sweat a lot (I work veryyyyyyy hard, somtimes in the rain or in the cold). When I'm outside and look at my knife, I just see little droplets of sweat-condensation on the blade. I will "Tuf" it and then another added layer of oil ;-) Or maybe just work less.

Thanks and see ya!
 
Salt water has more ions in it, leading to the greater chance of iron in the blade forming ions itself. Once there are iron ions, they will oxidize (combine with oxygen) to form iron oxide, which is rust.

I thought that fish don't go down to the really deep parts of the ocean because of the pressure... But I could be wrong. In support of Chuck's view, I guess the interface between water and air lets oxygen dissolve into the water, leading to there being more oxygen at the surface. I wonder if really deep-sea wrecks corrode less.

Koolstof, since you're going after cold storage to slow down the rate of chemical reactions, you might want to try places that are cold but don't have water. Chuck brought up nitrogen. I'm not sure whether the extreme temperature would harm the materials in your blade (kind of like burning the temper, but in reverse), but someone with access to a chem lab ought to try it out. I'll ask my father when I go home for Christmas, he teaches Chemistry.

Even with non-water cold storage, you'd still want to make sure *all* the water is removed from the surface of the material. I'm not sure if all this is economically viable for the common knife collector, but if we're talking about theory, anything goes.
 
Oxygen in the presence of moisture will cause the red flakey stuff we normally think of as rust. When the air is very dry iron oxide tends to be black, not red. That is why many old blades have black spots all over them. This will still eat away and pit your blades, but in the presence of moisture, oxygen will destroy iron much quicker.
 
As you can see, I'm pretty new here, (just a budding knife knut :)) but I may be able to add an option not yet metioned. I'm sure the other gun-nuts here know that cosmoline is an all purpose preservative for hardware (military guns are slathered in it for storage, car companies use it for cars going overseas). Basically, if you want a gun to last underground, slather it in wax paper, wrap it tightly in wax paper and put it in a metal container and it will probably outlast you. I'm sure that it will work great for knives.

Downside, it can be a pain to clean off, but mineral spirits or Wurth Citrus Degreaser work reasonable well, (or do a google search on 'cosmoline cleaning'). Also, you need to COMPLETELY disassemble to clean off cosmoline because it gets in EVERYTHING!

Note: Cosmoline should not be used for rubber or plastic materials as it is petroleum based. But for wood and metal, it can't be beat.

EnkiduEOT
 
Go to the store, & purchase a vacuum food sealer. Put a well oiled (protected with Militec or similar)knife inside, vacuum seal it, and put it in a safe place.

Problem solved.

Works for me.
 
One problem I have is that most of my knives are a combination of materials. I don't know what happens to stag,bone,mother-of-pearl, etc. when coated with cosmoline and vacuum sealed in a bag or mason jar.Folders will present a problem due to the fact that the hinge pin may not be of the same material as the blade or bolster and two different metals sometime react to one another.
 
Yeah, how about that, didn't think of that really... You do should pay attention... However an outdoors-knife should be able to handle if it's not to fast. Will stick wit the zip-bags for now ;-) and oil and cleaning and oil and cleaning and oil and cleaning ;-)
 
Take the knife and clean very well.Wax it with a quality wax. Use a drop of White Lightening on the pivot pin and place it in a mason jar.Put one of those silica packette moisture absorber things that come with electronic gear in the jar and then seal it with the commercial grade vacuum sealer.Place the jar in a cool dark place and it should remain in new condition for hundreds of years.
 
This is actually what I wanted: plenty of helpfull, practical tips in terms of longterm knife storage. Mine is somewhat over the top, I know :-) If they ounce dig up this stuff they will frown their brows; I think.

Thanks.
 
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