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From what I've heard about today's Boy Scouts there are many who don't think they should have knives. I wonder if any are trained. http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_356200328.html
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Knife training ??
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Scouting has standardized training for folding knives, hand axes, axes, and saws.
Of course, training does not prevent accidents; it only reduces the odds.
Although it does not, as a national organization, bar use of fixed-blades knives, the BSA "discourages" the use of "large" fixed-blade knives on the grounds that they are not necessary for the Scout outdoor program. The BSA stopped selling fixed-blade sheath knives many years ago at a time when "urban-centered Scouting" was the (short-lived) emphasis -- that almost killed off Scouting.
Many local Scout councils and Scout Troops do bar the carrying or use of any fixed blade knife. "Safety" is the reason typically given. Those who make the rules typically (Please note careful use of adverb.) have little or no outdoor experience.
Some councils and Troops also have rules setting the maximum blade length of knives to be used in Scouting.
The BSA has eliminated the requirement that a Scout demonstrate how to safety use and pass a fixed-blade knife from the requirements for the Tot'N'Chip, a card that is required before a Scout may handle or use ANY edged tool.
Paradoxically, the official cooking utensil kit sold by the BSA and local councils contains fixed-blade knives, and they are naturally encountered in life. Thus, eliminating the standardized training in safe use of a FB knife and the requirement of such training as part of the Tot'N'Chip system eliminates an opportunity to train boys in safely handling a tool they WILL use.
Even more strange, were safety the issue, is the continued emphasis in Scouting on axes and hand axes -- a tool less commonly encountered in daily life and one with greater potential for serious injury than the knife.
One can also argue that, given a safe sheath and proper handling, a fixed-blade knife is safer than a folding knife because it cannot fold.
The accident linked here involved a small, folding knife and an adult.
Of course, training does not prevent accidents; it only reduces the odds.
Although it does not, as a national organization, bar use of fixed-blades knives, the BSA "discourages" the use of "large" fixed-blade knives on the grounds that they are not necessary for the Scout outdoor program. The BSA stopped selling fixed-blade sheath knives many years ago at a time when "urban-centered Scouting" was the (short-lived) emphasis -- that almost killed off Scouting.
Many local Scout councils and Scout Troops do bar the carrying or use of any fixed blade knife. "Safety" is the reason typically given. Those who make the rules typically (Please note careful use of adverb.) have little or no outdoor experience.
Some councils and Troops also have rules setting the maximum blade length of knives to be used in Scouting.
The BSA has eliminated the requirement that a Scout demonstrate how to safety use and pass a fixed-blade knife from the requirements for the Tot'N'Chip, a card that is required before a Scout may handle or use ANY edged tool.
Paradoxically, the official cooking utensil kit sold by the BSA and local councils contains fixed-blade knives, and they are naturally encountered in life. Thus, eliminating the standardized training in safe use of a FB knife and the requirement of such training as part of the Tot'N'Chip system eliminates an opportunity to train boys in safely handling a tool they WILL use.
Even more strange, were safety the issue, is the continued emphasis in Scouting on axes and hand axes -- a tool less commonly encountered in daily life and one with greater potential for serious injury than the knife.
One can also argue that, given a safe sheath and proper handling, a fixed-blade knife is safer than a folding knife because it cannot fold.
The accident linked here involved a small, folding knife and an adult.
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That looked like a freak accident that could not have been prevented. I agree that large > 4" knives are not needed for the type of outdoor activities associated with todays liability conscious BSA programs. That being said, I still don't think they should just be banned. In the scouts you have a structured environment where practical and beneficial life skills can be learned and praticed. The type of skills you don't pick up sitting in front of a PS2 or Xbox. Carrying and using a knife, large or small properly around others promotes a sense of responsibility, something that today's youth are in dire need of. If safe handling practices are taught and adhered to at all times, all but freak accidents like this one will be prevented. Just my $0.02.
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No doubt about it being a freak accident. Edged tools and scouting go hand in hand. It's all part of the outdoor experience. Camping, hiking, woodcraft skills, at least that's the way it was when I was in scouts. Pretty pathetic the way society views knife use in these activities. I have no use for people who are ignorant about man's oldest tool. They irritate me.:grumpy:
Scott
Scott
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skammer said:Political correctness ruined the BSA years ago and is why I left the organization. They no longer let boys be boys leaders are nursemaids and not role models anymore.
Dont even get me started on letting females into the organization.
Skam
PC
The BSA is far from PC. If fact, Scouting is regarded as so controversial (due to their policy barring gays as adult leaders) that they are barred by many United Way organizations from receiving funds. Several state governments attempted to bat their use of public facilities/parks. Some floated a "trial balloon" in Congress to bar Scouts from all federal facilities.
I don't know if you've looked around, but "God and Country" is hardly PC these days, as "PC" is defined by NY and LA.
BOY LEADERSHIP
The official policy of the BSA has always been that Scout Troops are to be boy-led. Scouts are to plan the program and lead it. Adults are to coach and provide resources.
The tendency of adults to ignore the above, at least to some degree, has been a problem from the beginning. Adults as Scouters tend to act like parents. And they don't understand that "doing it right" (safety aside) is NOT the point at all. The mistakes, if covered in a non-threatening evaluation, are part of the education of leaders.
Any Scout Troop that is not boy-led is NOT complying with BSA policy. Don't like adult-led Troops? Start a Scout Troop that complies with the rules.
FEMALE COMMISSIONED SCOUTERS
The greatest limit on bringing Scouting to boys is the shortage of adult help. Scouting needs about 400,000 registered adult Scouters to bring the ratio of boys/adults to what is was before 1970. Females are over half the adult population. Until a few years ago, no female could be a uniformed Scouter. The rule change was made in the hope that it would have a significant impact on the shortage. It didn't. Few females have become uniformed Scouters since the rules were changed. The shortage continues and millions of boys cannot be in Scouts.
The shortage of adults, by the way, leads to toleration of Scouters who act like they are the Scout leaders. If the choice is an adult-led Troop or none, the Scouting bureaucracy tends to lets it go when persuasion does not persuade.
Adults do what is important to them. Helping boys experience Scouting - or Little League, band, etc. -- is not important enough for adequate adult help to be offered.
Thomas,
Your experience with scouting is VERY different to mine.
In my area it did go PC and liability and safety have made it so restrictive its impossible to do anything without a fesability study and legal advice first.
Scouting has changed so much since I was in it as a kid I want no part of it. Hell, we hunted and got firearms training in scouts when I was in it.
There is no question it has changed light years from the original intention of Baden Powell. He'd is rolling in his grave.
Women leaders make up 40% of troups here and have brought nothing but a mothers rules to the kids (exactly what they joined to avoid). Men and kids are quiting in droves.
Sad.
Skam
Your experience with scouting is VERY different to mine.
In my area it did go PC and liability and safety have made it so restrictive its impossible to do anything without a fesability study and legal advice first.
Scouting has changed so much since I was in it as a kid I want no part of it. Hell, we hunted and got firearms training in scouts when I was in it.
There is no question it has changed light years from the original intention of Baden Powell. He'd is rolling in his grave.
Women leaders make up 40% of troups here and have brought nothing but a mothers rules to the kids (exactly what they joined to avoid). Men and kids are quiting in droves.
Sad.
Skam
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Skammer, as I recall you are in Canada.
We have some experience with Scouts Canada due to regularly attending the excellent Camporee held in Dorchester each year.
Different programs. Scouts Canada and all that. We are not ready for girls in Scout Troops, and female uniformed Scouters don't approach 5% in our area. Perhaps the two facts are related. Put girls in Troops and perhaps more females would serve as Scouters.
My experience is not typical. Few Troops these days take 60 Scouts and 18 adults to Summer Camp or average four (real) Eagles a year. We camp each month plus high adventure outings twice for older Scouts. We are, emphatically, boy-led.
The goal of Scouting is producing good citizens. We seem to be doing well in our Troop. One example: on 9/11, our former Senior Patrol Leader was a Sophmore attending college in N.Y.C. He organized 6000 college students to make sandwiches and beverages for the Ground Zero workers. We were all pleased as heck -- not surprised at all. He had been an excellent Patrol leader before being elected SPL.
We still have rifle ranges at our Summer Camps. Boys still earn shooting awards from the NRA and shooting MB's. The Outdoor Program is still at the heart of Scouting's methods here.
Lousy Troops merely indicate the need for good adults to put on a program that is still needed and still "sells" to youth. It is the lack of adults committed to good Scouting that is "sad."
(And, last I knew, there is a Scouting organization in Canada other than Scouts Canada. There is still the Boy Scouts, although much reduced in numbers.)
We have some experience with Scouts Canada due to regularly attending the excellent Camporee held in Dorchester each year.
Different programs. Scouts Canada and all that. We are not ready for girls in Scout Troops, and female uniformed Scouters don't approach 5% in our area. Perhaps the two facts are related. Put girls in Troops and perhaps more females would serve as Scouters.
My experience is not typical. Few Troops these days take 60 Scouts and 18 adults to Summer Camp or average four (real) Eagles a year. We camp each month plus high adventure outings twice for older Scouts. We are, emphatically, boy-led.
The goal of Scouting is producing good citizens. We seem to be doing well in our Troop. One example: on 9/11, our former Senior Patrol Leader was a Sophmore attending college in N.Y.C. He organized 6000 college students to make sandwiches and beverages for the Ground Zero workers. We were all pleased as heck -- not surprised at all. He had been an excellent Patrol leader before being elected SPL.
We still have rifle ranges at our Summer Camps. Boys still earn shooting awards from the NRA and shooting MB's. The Outdoor Program is still at the heart of Scouting's methods here.
Lousy Troops merely indicate the need for good adults to put on a program that is still needed and still "sells" to youth. It is the lack of adults committed to good Scouting that is "sad."
(And, last I knew, there is a Scouting organization in Canada other than Scouts Canada. There is still the Boy Scouts, although much reduced in numbers.)
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I entered the BSA in 1962 and the first thing I was given was a knife. Of course, I had been using one for a few years already, but it was cool getting my very own scout knife. It was a fixed blade. The only time we saw a woman at scout camp was when we visited the nurse, or in the middle of the night, when we snuck across the lake to the girl scout camp in our canoes. We learned to shoot .22 rifles, bows and arrows, learned to camp, hike, fish, track and hunt. We learned to make traps, primitive fire (flint and steel), fall trees, split wood, proper knife, axe and hatchet handling, whittle, carve, cook, read compasses and maps and the safety tips that go along with it all. We rode horses and learned to row and sail. There were cuts, burns, poison oak, sunburn, fist fights, falling off of horses, getting stepped on my a horse, falling out of boats and jumping out of boats. Not one person died and we all had a blast just being boys that were learning to become leaders and outdoorsmen.
If you take the element of being a boy out of scouting and take away everything that someone deems unsafe, you end up raising girls with nads. Oh and just what does a woman know about becoming a man? Women do not belong in the BSA, just like men do not belong in the GSA.
If you take the element of being a boy out of scouting and take away everything that someone deems unsafe, you end up raising girls with nads. Oh and just what does a woman know about becoming a man? Women do not belong in the BSA, just like men do not belong in the GSA.
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Their isnt much use for skills learned in the BSA any more. You dont need to carry a knife when you live in a large town, everything is precut and its nice that way. most gear i bring with me camping dosnt require a knife and i have never needed to use a knife when camping, maybe to cut open a bag, but you can do it with your hands just as easy. The only time i do use a knife outdoors is fishing and i use one alot doing work around my farm. Most of my knives are for looking at not using.
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SubaruSTi said:Their isnt much use for skills learned in the BSA any more. You dont need to carry a knife when you live in a large town, everything is precut and its nice that way. most gear i bring with me camping dosnt require a knife and i have never needed to use a knife when camping, maybe to cut open a bag, but you can do it with your hands just as easy. The only time i do use a knife outdoors is fishing and i use one alot doing work around my farm. Most of my knives are for looking at not using.
First, this is the Wilderness & Survival Skills Forum.
Second, you must never buy a product in a "bubble pack."
Beyond those obvious observations, you seem to know very little about Scouting if you think is is "about" knives.
What is Scouting about?
Trustworty, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Friendly, Brave, Clean, Reverent.
Leadership skills, including planning; communications; concern for the skills, needs, and chacteristics of the members of the group; counseling; delegating; keeping on task; ("Keep the group together. Get the job done.")
The obligations of good citizenship (The rights are covered to death, but the duties get little discussion beyond the appeals to the clueless to vote.)
The outdoor program is merely a setting to attract boys ("First, you have to catch them." BP) and an framework in which to teach the important things. It is still attractive to more boys than we can serve.
If, as an adult, you never start a fire/camp out in Winter snow/build a shelter, the effort to learn to oversome the problem is useful. What resources (time/people/tools/material) are needed -- and when? How should the work be organized in a group? What can be delegated? What is the impact on the environment? How does one keep enthusiasm high in the group? What does "tired" REALLY mean?
Beyond attempting to teach things useful to creating good citizens, Scouting also leads boys to skills not wilderness-centered.
Computers -- One of our Troop grads got his Computer Merit Badge and went on to teach Computer Information Science.
Chemistry -- Yup. One chemistry teacher.
Photography - One of our grads is a pro for a newspaper.
Scholarship in school generally -- One of our Scouts needed the Scholarship MB to get rank qualifying for a high adventure trip. His grades went up generally thereafter. He "figured out" how to budget and prioritize time.
Shooting -- several professional military and two LEO's.
Swimming -- one received the Award for Saving Life pulling a mother and daughter out of a car that wrecked into a river. I can't think of a Scout who was in our Troop for at least a year who cannot swim. hindreds have earned the Swimming MB.
First Aid -- required for rank and a Merit Badge subject, first aid is a Troop specialty. Folks get hurt even in cities and farms. One doctor and one EMT from our Troop so far, but hundreds of First Aid MB's -- all fully earned.
Fatherhood -- boys with no dad at home (or effectively no dad at home) interact with men who are devoted fathers. The time these men devote to the program witnesses the proper priorities. I have had many former Scouts tell me how they noticed that some dads are willing to spend time with their sons. I think they will remeber that when they are dads.
Cooking -- No need to live on (and die from) Micky-D's and pizza if you can cook.
Any many others. :thumbup:
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When did i say it was all about knives? the thread was about a knife in the head 
. Todays scout masters are not like they used to be. Alot of things that they used to do isnt allowed anymore due to it being too dangerous. And most kids dont want anything to do with boyscouts. its just not how it used to be now everyones worried if the scout master is gay or not well trained or if one kid is too fat to ride in the boat lol. When you worry about stupid crap like that its not as fun. the world has really changed.
. Todays scout masters are not like they used to be. Alot of things that they used to do isnt allowed anymore due to it being too dangerous. And most kids dont want anything to do with boyscouts. its just not how it used to be now everyones worried if the scout master is gay or not well trained or if one kid is too fat to ride in the boat lol. When you worry about stupid crap like that its not as fun. the world has really changed.Apparently peoples experience with scouting varies region to region.
The areas I have lived in scouting has been ruined.
Hell they wont even let them sleep in tents without a leader for fear of liability. . Its no coincidence many of scoutings policy makers are now women . The paper work is astounding to send your kid to camp for a weekend now.
"Women with gonads" is a good analogy.
A Shame
Skam
The areas I have lived in scouting has been ruined.
Hell they wont even let them sleep in tents without a leader for fear of liability.
. Its no coincidence many of scoutings policy makers are now women . The paper work is astounding to send your kid to camp for a weekend now."Women with gonads" is a good analogy.
A Shame
Skam
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SubaruSTi said:Their isnt much use for skills learned in the BSA any more. You dont need to carry a knife when you live in a large town, everything is precut and its nice that way. most gear i bring with me camping dosnt require a knife and i have never needed to use a knife when camping, maybe to cut open a bag, but you can do it with your hands just as easy. The only time i do use a knife outdoors is fishing and i use one alot doing work around my farm. Most of my knives are for looking at not using.
One can only be guided to your meaning by what you posted. Sorry if I misunderstood. You only mentioned knives in discussing "skills learned in the BSA. . . ."
There were useless Scoutmasters when I ws a Scout, centuries ago.
Just not as many.Yes, things are "tamer" than they were years ago. But that observation applies across the social "board." Read the label on the top of a stepladder: "You might fall." Read the label on a knife sharpener: "Makes knives sharp." "Do not dry pets in clothes dryer." "Do not use cleaning fluid on garment when wearing it." "Hot coffee is [WAIT FOR IT!] - HOT." Gee! Do you suppose?
It's too many lawyers, too many lawsuits, too much plaintiff lawyer $$ contributed to politicians (esp. judges) resulting in steady changes in the law making it easier to successfully sue -- if you fall of the top of that ladder. So Scouting is not immune.
And kids still would join Scout Troops if there were enough properly trained and behaving adults willing to serve. I have personally had to tell hundreds of boys that the Scout Troop they hoped to join would not exist because adults would not sign up to be Committeee or Commissioned Scouters (Most commonly: "too busy"). Some % were salvaged to other Troops. Others join and quit because their Scouters do not deliver on the promise of boy-leadership and a fun program. That's because as standards for background checks have risen, stadards for ability and commitment to REAL Scouting have declined. When you're feeling lucky to get a poor Scoutmaster ------ you are accepting a poor Scoutmaster.
But people are not "joiners" generally. Not a problem isolated to Scouting. Ask the garden club, the PTA, the Lions, etc. "Too busy."
One can curse the darkness or ...........................
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I learned most of what i know about the outdoors in the outdoors and books/trial and error. One day their will be a need for everyone to know how to make a fire, shelter and find water or they will die. Natural desasters like katrina show us that everyday. their will be more to come next year and the year after that. the truth is we all live in the same pre-cut world and were not all hardcore mountian men. even those who think they are, hell we all have computers lol.
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Hell, our meetings were pretty much daycare compared to what I learned in Air Cadets.
89-97 with scouts canada. All the way through to 2nd level in scouts, I was one of the group leaders when I left. Spring, Fall and Winter camps, all tightly organized and planned months in advance. Think the only useful things I picked up were how to use a compass & to start a fire quickly with flint/steel even with cold hands. Canned food, coolers, chainsaws & axes, and walking an hour to the site with all our [required] gear for the weekend. Between 15 guys we had everything.
96-02 with Air Cadets. Survival once a month if we could work it out with the officers, Spring and Fall were the entire squadron, the rest of em were 2nd year and above(4th and above was manditory as we planned em). They'd dump us off on friday after supper and pick us up sunday around supper. The junior cadets got rations and tents dropped off... senior cadets got what we could carry on our backs. Water was carried in by "volunteers". Senior cadets planned the weekend events, loosly organized yet highly efficient. Taught the cadets how to do everything from start fires to building shelters, to E&E while doing a compass course at 2am(after being up since 6am and a hard day of S&R). Everyone carried and used a knife, we gave em all of about 30min safety instruction when everyone was dropped off, and usually had 2-3 injuries over the 3 days. Not bad for over 100 kids ages 12-18.
89-97 with scouts canada. All the way through to 2nd level in scouts, I was one of the group leaders when I left. Spring, Fall and Winter camps, all tightly organized and planned months in advance. Think the only useful things I picked up were how to use a compass & to start a fire quickly with flint/steel even with cold hands. Canned food, coolers, chainsaws & axes, and walking an hour to the site with all our [required] gear for the weekend. Between 15 guys we had everything.
96-02 with Air Cadets. Survival once a month if we could work it out with the officers, Spring and Fall were the entire squadron, the rest of em were 2nd year and above(4th and above was manditory as we planned em). They'd dump us off on friday after supper and pick us up sunday around supper. The junior cadets got rations and tents dropped off... senior cadets got what we could carry on our backs. Water was carried in by "volunteers". Senior cadets planned the weekend events, loosly organized yet highly efficient. Taught the cadets how to do everything from start fires to building shelters, to E&E while doing a compass course at 2am(after being up since 6am and a hard day of S&R). Everyone carried and used a knife, we gave em all of about 30min safety instruction when everyone was dropped off, and usually had 2-3 injuries over the 3 days. Not bad for over 100 kids ages 12-18.
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skammer said:Apparently peoples experience with scouting varies region to region.
The areas I have lived in scouting has been ruined.
Hell they wont even let them sleep in tents without a leader for fear of liability.
"Women with gonads" is a good analogy.
A Shame
Skam
I watched this very scenario unfold with my sister and her two sons. She became involved due to the staffing issue and they lost interest because of it. I know I never wanted to go camping with mom along.:thumbdn:
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LMFAOskammer said:
yep, that seems to be the way it's gotten to be in alot of other areas in the U.S. Some men have given up their nads to women.Scott