Knifemaker or knifebreaker?

Joined
Jun 13, 2004
Messages
216
Well, I finally upgraded my status here. This place has really helped me come along in my knifemaking so I am helping out.

So, now I just upgraded to a knifemaker however given my latest attempts at heat treating I feel like a knifebreaker. Two large knives, one 8" blade and one 10" blade, warped and cracked. I have no problem with the smaller knives.

Here is my set up: Propane forge, 1" cake pan with bacon fat (using Wayne Goddard's methods for 'Goop' quenching). I forge using 5160 and then grind down to 220 grit. I left 3/16" on the spine and 1/8" on the edge. I normalized 3 times with the third time annealled in Perlite overnight. I annealled once before heat treat to relieve stresses from grinding. Then I triple heat and quench then three cycles in the oven.

The blades warped on the third quench, curving to the right. I broke the last one and found a very fine grain structure.

Has anyone else had this problem once switching over to large blades?
 
Joe I think nearly everybody has one go bad from time to time I the early days. I know some very experenced makers that also have a off day.

The other issue you raise is the old favourite about tripple chenching . Before I start I will put on my armour because I may take a few blows.
I quench once. I believe I do it right the first time. Every time you heat the metal red hot is expands. Metal expands long before red hot that is how we shrink fit bearings onto shafts without damaging them.

Quenching 3 times gives you 3 chances to get it right in some opinions. It also gives you 3 chances to have it go wrong as in this case.

What came first. Was the metal stressed and you discovered the fault before you sent it out or did you put the stress into it. Depending on which way you look at it you may have done the finest thing possible quality checking the blade. or you may just have broken a good blade.

I could be wrong But I tend to think you got it exactly right on quench 1 and quench 2 then something was not quite evan on 3 that caused the problem.

I don't think anyone can know for sure but I am only talking from ignorance not from science. Perhaps there is a metalergist out there with the science to put me right.

I do agree with the 3 times normalising refining the shape and hammer marks on the surface of the blade. That is more about fine tuning the surface appearance and straightness. Just not the triple quench unless you warp it leave it after one. If it warps straighten it when hot and re do the quench. until you get it straight.
 
Howdy Joe, I know the feeling when you see that blade warp after so much hard work. :mad: I think you are right on with the 3/16 x1/8 before heat treat.
IMHO the extra steps in normalizing and annealing are not needed to produce a quality blade. Once is enough if done corrrectly. Steel reacts to "energy" applied or removed as "heat" over a given length of "time". It doesn't take into consideration that it has been left to rest overnight. If you are going to temper for six hours, do it in one sequence. You state that you hardened the blade three times and that it warped on the third quench. If the temp of the steel is correct and the quench is at proper temp, the first quench should do the trick. No need for the 2nd and third quenches. When you anneal, the blade will be soft in an hour or so. there is no need to leave it overnight. My brother in law, Mike, is a metallurgist. I had access to his knowledge as I was learning to forge. He helped to dispell a lot of the smoke and mirrors that is so
prevalent in the knifemaking community. Jams, Fred
 
Well I wear my armor all the time because I have stood up like a lightening rod a feww too many times on some of these issues. I, think it is obvious by now that I agree that if you do it right the first time you can eliminate the risks of the subsequent hardenings if you know what steel you are working with. You have mentioned 5160, while chromium is not as greedy with carbon as other elements, there is only .55 to .60% carbon to play with there so you will wnat to free up as much as possible. 1525F-1550F should be your target temp for that alloy and if you can't nail that temp for required ammount of time, then you may find the blade a bit harder with finer grain by quenching it a second time, or perhaps even a third, but as has been pointed out you will also increase your chances of both distortion and decarburization with every subsequent heat.

If you were to switch to a simpler steel to match more basic tools your success would increase, with no decrease in performance. 1080 or 1084 would reach desired temp as soon as the magnet quits sticking and the soak time would not be as critical.

So far all I have observed in the multiple quenching thing tells me is that folks are improvising to make basic tools work with steel that require more advanced equipment, but since they are getting the good end results I must applaud them for a clever way around this dilemma.

Now for both my armor and my body guards, if taking on triple quenching will get you a beating, taking on a mans quenchant I have found will start WWIII. I am surprized you are getting distortion at all in the bacon fat. For the sake of peace, I am not going to dwell on that particular medium, but instead let's discuss how quenching works.

When you heat a piece of steel it will indeed expand until it reaches a red color and then there will be a dulling shadow effect before it can get brighter again. At this point there will be a a drastic contraction of the steel as it gets ready for your quench. The opposite can happen on the way back down, if the cooling is not quick enough the steel will expand at around 1100F -1000F., and if you cool the whole thing quick enough, that expansion will happen at around 400-450F and it will be very dramatic. If part of the blade doesn't quite make it while another does there will be some level of permenant distortion because somethings gotta give. On actual liquid edge quenches this is still true but the distortion can be so subtle on wide blades that is is barely noticeable.

Quenching is a very complicated matter, it is a WHOLE lot more that just tossing a piece of hot steel into any cooling medium and waiting for the blade to get hard, and I will debate anybody who thinks it is, because it is far too important for success to blow it off so easily. The two most significant ways for a meduim to cool your blade is convection and conduction. For convection to work, things must be fluid and even gas has more fluidity than a solid, so for this part of the equation you are better off with air than a solid or semi-solid. This is why viscosity is so important in quench oils- lower viscosity means increased convection, we heat our quench oils to 150F to help this as much as we can.

Conduction alone can do the job with some alloys, you have probably heard of folks that use quench plates with stainless steel. This is just a guess but organic fats may be more of an insulator than a metal plate would be, so it could really use the benefit of convection to pull the heated liquidified medium away from the blade, but then we have already eliminated the convection effect :( .

Industry has been working for years to come up with quenchants that have great convective and conductive qualities, proper viscosities (mostly very low), low vapor forming points and optimum thermal extraction rates. I may be wrong, perhaps some folks in the industry may have encountered exceptions they could share, but I believe the concept of Goop quenches with simple high carbon steel is fairly unique to bladesmithing.

Under the microsope I have observed plenty of fine pearlite in blades that would skate a file just fine (quenches that were farily quick and totally liquid), but would not hold the desired edge in the long run. But the blades would bend like a noodle in a vice, and as long as this is our top criteria I guess just about any cooling method we try will indeed work fine.

None of this is a criticism of you or your efforts Joe, since you came here looking for ways to improve the process, you seem to be headed in the right direction. Just be very careful to be willing to question everything you read (heck, including this post), and verify the inforamtion with other proven sources. Bladesmithing literature is riddled with information and techniques that has left the big boys in the steel working industry scratching their head, wincing, and sometimes snickering a bit.

Heat that 5160 up to 1525F. hold for couple of minutes if you can and then quench into some automatic transmission fluid and see how it turns out.

Did you folks see that - I said ATF, not Parks AAA! IT was hard, but I said it! So maybe the thrashing I am about to receive will be a little less violent. (I also thought that from goop to Parks AAA may be too large of a step as well ;) )
 
Joe, As kevin has so rightly pointed out there is a preponderance of good information in the knife making industry. There is much less misinformation.
Sorting it out is the tough part. That is one of the great benifits of these forums. Many good people, with a lot of good information. I am always learning about a new technique or approach to some facet of knifemaking on this forum. FRED :thumbup:
 
That's the beauty of knifemaking/knife breaking!.lots of pro's have done the testing/experimenting,and are willing to share this valuable info with the rest of us!
i tip my hat to you folks! thank you! :)
but Joe,its ok to break them too brother...that way you know 1st hand if the methods you are using are to there optimum(your expectations)
good luck bro!
hope to see you at the HI
 
ATF is a suitable quenchant because its job in life is to remove heat and cool the tranny. So it would stand to reason that it will work well on knives to remove the heat from the blade as you quench. I use it with good results on my blades.
 
After reading the advice given on this thread and doing some research on my own, I theorized that the bacon fat just wasn't cooling the blade fast enough due to the limited amount of bacon fat and the small size of the pan. Using Kevin's and Arthur's advice I got up early yesterday morning and bought a large metal changing pan and two gallons of ATF from NAPA. I fired up the forge and warmed up the ATF on an old BBQ grill outside. I did not have any Tempil sticks to tell when my forge was at 1525' F so I got the test blade up to nonmagnetic and let it soak for several minutes. When I though the time was right I quenched the test blade.

I quickly remembered that I should have something to cover the pan to smother any flames. I remembered once the flames rose over the BBQ grill cover. As I ran about the garage looking for enough steel to cover the pan (and a fire extinguisher!) the gentlemen doing construction across the street decided my work was suddenly more interesting.

I found my makeshift lid (Dan, the bandsaw steel I got from you is now fully annealled :D ) and the flames were out. I looked up and saw several people watching me. I endured a few desered jibes about not having lunch ready and went back to work.

After a few more attempts with the test blade, I realized the ATF quenched alot faster than the bacon fat. Once my technique was down I did the big blade. No warping, no cracking and I could not get the file to bite the edge at all.

Thank you Kevin and Arthur for your advice (I have also ordered some 1080 to practice with.) Thank you Fred and Reg for your explanations. I am back on track making knives. :D :D
 
Halleluja! We've saved another soul :D ! Work with that ATF until you get the hang of it and then we will talk AAA or #50 ;) and you can experience serious heat treating power. You were able to get the ATF in a day connecting you up with a source for the others may take longer.

The 5160 should work just fine with your setup. I only suggested 1080 if multiple quenching was the only way one was getting satisfactory results with 5160. If putting your 5160 into ATF once is getting you the blade of your dreams- run with it.

If I may ask how much did 2 gallons of ATF run you? Are you full quenching the blade or edge quenching. If full quenching the blade you should not get any flare ups if the blade is entirely below the surface, if you do your blade was definately too hot, when edge quenching it is inevitable.

I'm happy enough for you that I want to share a couple more tips if I may, warm your oil to around 130-150F for best results (that viscosity/convection thing again ;)). If full quenching, quickly introduce the blade to the oil and then move it back and forth in the oil in a tip to tang direction (side to side will invite distortion) until the boiling sound is all gone, to help with the even cooling.

Keep breaking some blades, however, and checking your grain size to see where you heat before the quench is actually at. Get a used Nickelson file and break it and look at the grain. You want your grain to be at least that smooth or finer if you can.

Good luck :thumbup:
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Keep breaking some blades, however, and checking your grain size to see where you heat before the quench is actually at. Get a used Nickelson file and break it and look at the grain. You want your grain to be at least that smooth or finer if you can.

Good luck :thumbup:

Is large grain size an indication that the blade was too hot when quenched?
 
Mike Ferrara said:
Is large grain size an indication that the blade was too hot when quenched?


To put it very simply, yes. But...

One can do a wide array of "pre" treatments that will set things up for the final heat to create very fine grain, but if you blow that last heat before the quench, it is all for nothing. The finer and more even the microstructure going into the heat for hardening, the better things will be for getting everything ready for the quench. But there are always trade offs, the universe insists on balance, if one is not very careful to get the condition of the blade very even, pre-treatments can set things up for increased distortion. Also finer grain results in more rapid initiation of diffusional processes, so it can become increasingly harder to avoid pearlite and fully harden your blade.

Grain growth is perhaps the single worst thing we can do to the steel from a strength/toughness standpoint. When you have tight control over your heat, you will find that grain growth is rather easily controlled and requires a serious misuse of heat, depending upon the steel. The fact that so many smiths encounter it tells you how much we could all benefit from tighter control of our heat.

With any steel that is not around .80% Carbon there will be excess iron rich material (ferrite) or excess carbide to disolve at high heat. With this stuff scattered in the grain boundaries, the "walls" if the grain will be stabilized and grain growth will stall. If you heat high enough to disolve everything into austenite and then continue with heat, the grain boundairies will become unstable and will collapse at points of high energy and the grains will combine to form fewer larger ones. Put a stick in a puddle and then a few squirts of dish soap and froth things up into bubbles and then sit back and watch how the bubbles will combine to form fewer larger ones as their walls collapse. But you will notice around the stick the finer bubbles remain, due to the stabilizing effect of the solid object in their midst. This is a great model for what is happening in your steel. So the balancing act is to heat enough to get your carbon into solution, but not enough to collapse the walls.
 
Kevin:

Thank you for all your help with the harding problem. Switching to ATF helped make the blade sharp, tough and durable. I was able to chop through two 2x4's and still shave hair. I then flexed it in a vise to 90 degrees and it came back to within 10 degrees of true. I flewxed it 90 degrees the other was and it's true (more or less :D ) now. I am fitting a handle on it and will play with the blade and see what it can do.

BTW, I am doing an edge quench in the ATF then tempering x 3 in the kitchen oven (shop toaster oven is too small!) at 312 to 325. The kitchen oven does not like staying at one temperature.

Again, thank you for your help.

Joe Cabaup

edited to add:

The ATF was $1.30 to $1.60 a quart. NAPA didn't have enough of the cheap stuff.
 
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