Knives and guns, then and now.

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Oct 2, 2004
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Just recently the bladeforums member willis, made a post about a Case he had bought and how it was thicker than the old ones. I've been giving his post some thought and I've looked over some of my older knives and guns,and he's right. The older stuff was just better feeling in the hand. Guns too.

I have this cigar box. Its a pretty normal cigar box, from a well known brand of cigars, Marsh Wheelings to be exact, and in it are some old sentimental items from long ago. It seems that my reputation as a pocket knife knut is well esablished, so when somebody passes on there is many times a widow, or mother, telling me that so and so wanted me to have this, or the dear departed would have liked me to have this. The "this" is usually an old pocket knife. Disturbingly, this cigar box has somehow had additions made to it as I have gotten older. Many memories of some old friends and family, a few co-workers, and one special friend I served with in the army who did'nt get to rotate home with us, are in that box. I took out my dads old well worn peanut and compared it to my late model one. They are both trim little knives, but dads is still a bit trimer in the hand. The same for guns. I'm looking at the old pre-war Colt woodsman, and I can't think of one modern .22 pistol that has the exquisite feel of the flat round butt woodsman. My 1960's Ruger standard model feels like a 2X4 compared to the old Colt. Even the later Colts of the 60's were bigger and blockier.

And then there's the sights.

One day someone will have to explain to me why the front sights have become a big blob in comparison to the fine bead sights of yesteryear. I was looking at my old Marlin .22 lever action 39 from the early 60's and the brass bead front sight is half the size of the new ones. This makes a heck of alot of difference when plinking at small targets like a piece of clay bird at 50 yards. A shooting buddy at the range has a 1980's vintage of the same gun, and the bigger front sight makes it much harder to shoot at 50, but nigh impossable at 100 yards when you have to give it some Kentucky elevation and the front sight totally covers the target. Now I do understand that with a 6 o'clock hold it should not matter, but like alot of the old timers I use a dead on hold. With older eyes a dead on hold combined with a Williams foolproof peep sight is a fast and accurite way to shoot. Rifle to shoulder, brass bead on target, pull trigger. But the brass and ivory bead sights on the old rifles are very fine compared to the new stuff, and this does not work so well then. I guess the old school of "aim small, miss small" is a thing of the past.

Looking at a classic Buck 110 folding hunter from 1965, its noticably more trim than one from later vintage. The Buck was a heavy knife to start out with, but did someone at Buck come up with the idea that a knife should have the heft of an anchor from a Spruence class destroyer?

I think forum brother willis is right, there seems to be a different theroy of design these days that is big and blocky. But I could be out of my mind, I still think the 1937 ford coupe was a great looking car!
 
My dad had a small collection of colt woodsman pistols that I inherited. I use one of them, and the rest are put away. The one I do use is a Woodsman match target 4.5" barrel from the 1960's - in near perfect condition. I coon hunt occasionally, so I am always toting a 22 pistol, and I don't think you can buy one nowadays that is as nice a shooting pistol.

Dad spent the last half of his life looking for a case trapper that was as nice as the one he had when I was little (it was from the 1950's), and he never did like the new ones as much.

My grandaddy had a Hamilton 23 jewel railroad watch that I now have... I don't know that there is anything manufactured nowadays that would compare to the quality of that thing. I'm sure there is more complicated machinery around, but I bet it's not put together as well.
 
The older knives and guns seem to be more purpose-built, if that makes sense.

Shooting around, I put a smiley face in a piece of 2x2 cardstock at 50 feet with my dad's Ruger. A new one can't come close to that piece, and it's only 1980s. My grandfather's (and now my) Savage 29 is the sweetest shooting gun I've ever seen, hex barrel, post-and-leaf sight and all.

Sometimes, new is good. Sometimes, new-to-me is best.
 
Jackknife, I agree.. The older guns had simple but very effective iron sights.
Nowadays it is getting harder to find new rifles(not that I buy new ones) that even have iron sights.. When my stepson started shooting he was about 9 years old and I tought him to shoot with one of my old Winchester model 67 single shots with iron sights. I explained to him why I wanted him to learn with irons sights first and then we would move onto scopes if he wanted to.
He told his dad what I was teaching him and his dads response was, thats a waste of time, nobody shoots without a scope.... I think I better quit and get some sleep.. appears I might be drifting of topic a little...
 
Folks ain't being raised right.
Back when, did not have all the choices we have today, add folks did not have a lot of money, and did not do credit cards. If they could not afford it, they did not buy it.
Folks did lay-a-way, signed the ledger at the store and paid it off come payday.
Just easier to send kids to get stuff and sign a ledger.

Folks learned correct basic fundamentals from parents and adults. Parenting and "adulting" - what I call this passing forward as passed to.

What little TV folks watched, "taught" and reinforced ethics, morals, integrity, honesty, principles, and upholding ideas set forth in The Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Then folks had to make things difficult.
Marketing hit TV, radio, newspapers, magazines and picture shows.
Communications improved - folks got to finding out what other folks were using and doing.

"Gotta-haves" kicked in. "Keeping up with the Joneses" - kicked in,and if you could not afford it - well use your credit card!

Brainwashing from Gubmint about how they knew better to raise kids than parents.
Parents too busy to raise kids - and with the Gubmint doing it - kids did not get passed down to.
No time to learn correct basic fundamentals with a iron sighted .22 rifle, how to safely use a knife, whittle or nothing else.

Marketing convinced folks - one could "buy skill and targets" since nobody was teaching and passing forward.

Folks teach folks how to treat them, so when folks fussed about having to pay .35 for a gallon of gas for Full Service, they got .32 a gallon gas by pumping their own.

Knife and gun folks "got by" doing less quality metals, craftsmanship, quality control , selling for less monies and folks cheered and bought.

After all - with a credit card , whomever has the most toys win, and can't let the Jones family have more than you.

Gubmint meddled, folks too busy working to pay credit card bills to pay attention to Politics,and Legal matters happened.
Lawyers making money suing for folks for hot coffee that was "hot" and getting retainer fees from knife and gun companies so they would not get sued.

Common sense cells died from exposure to TV and Movies. Don't matter if the sticker says "keep feet and hands from out from under a lawnmower" - if a person did it anyway - he could sue and get money for being stupid.

Basically folks quit being responsible for themselves, got more dependent on Gubmint, "kilt" common sense brain cells and...

Bad case of "Iwannacoolgun" and "I wannacoolknife" virus hit the country.

I mean if Team Walrus ain't using it - must not be worth spit.

Funny though, there was a time when Police used a Model 19, qualified at 50 yards, and whatever carbon steel pocketknife he carried - did Police duty just fine.


Take me back to the Five & Dime Jimmy Dean ...

I could be wrong being as the Stork dropped me off in 1955 and we did not have a TV until some years later. Only had three channels - and that when the antenna on the roof behaved.

That Indian on the Test pattern screen was for a kid to shoot suction cupped darts at.
Kinda miss that, one reason I do not personally own a TV, oh and the fact one less something to dust...:D


Regards,

Steve
 
I have always believed that television was the worst thing that ever happened to society. Before tv, the pore folks didn't know how the rich folks were living, so there was no greed and living above your means. I was raised pore, but didn't know it at the time. I thought we were doing pretty good. Now since tv has shown everyone how they should be living, everyone has to have two or three automobiles and a tv in every room, whether they can afford it or not.
 
tv is deffinately a problem, and the fact that people want to blame everyone else for their problems...like how many parents are now trying to have the rules restricted on the tv so that there are no "swears" or violence of any kind or sexual inuendos because they don't want thier kids seeing these things. i say if you don't want your kids seeing these things, don't let them watch tv. kick them outside to go play kickball or something.
a very similar thing is happening on the internet, with parents and concerned individuals trying to get places like myspace shut down because people have been raped etc after meeting in person with someone they met online. once again, i say that the parents should spend more time watching what their kids are doing and less time fussing about what everyone else is doing.

sorry for the ramble, and getting off topic...

great writing, once again jackknife.
 
Hmmm, only three channels and if you can't pay for it you don't get it. Heck, that's my life now! I've got the fence wired up as a field expedient antenna; reception gets a bit rough when a storm is rolling in. Between some ex's on mine and my wife's side, some setbacks, and the parts we screwed up, our credit isn't that great. So, we either lay it away where we can, pay for it when we got it, or do without it. My car may be an 86 Pontiac Bonneville, with only a 108K original miles on it, but it is in pretty nice shape and even more important, it is paid for. There was a time, with another wife I had big truck payments, her car payments, and all that other stuff. I can live without all that.

Speaking of a S&W Mod 19 (pinned barrel), which by the way is the gun that got me really started in gun gathering, though I'd always had a gun or two around before, I'll be doing a trade for an earlier Mod 66 later this week. Yeah, I know, it's stainless. I've finally gotten to where I can appreciate a stainless handgun a bit. However, it came into my favorite shop and it just felt soooo good in the hand I had to call them back and tell them to hold it till I could get in. It'll make a nice double action stable mate to the New Vaquero in the same caliber. I will have to give Ruger some credit on that one. Enough CAS types were telling them what they didn't like about the Vaquero and Ruger listened. They went back to the smaller frame and the old XR3 grip, fixed it so that when you hear the click while rotating the cylinder the chamber is lined up, shaped the hammer a little better, and darn if the thing doesn't come from the factory with an easy pulling hammer and a decent trigger pull. Even the fixed sights have a good sight picture, better than some modern adjustables I seen. Best thing is that with the polished stainless and the black, checkered, hard rubber type grips, it looks like a nickled SAA from the late 1800/early 1900s. Oh, and it points like a dream. It doesn't have that old four click when you draw back the hammer, but I'd learned to live with it. Now to just get that EMF Hartford, 1892 Winchester repro to go along with it. The full length, octagon barreled one that hangs just right and has a darn good buckhorn sight set-up on it. I mean, you can actually draw a good sight picture with those "old-fashioned" iron sights. That'll go good with the pre-safety 1894 Marlin and Super Blackhawk (4 5/8 barrel) in .44 Mag.. Gonna have to start loading again so I can do my standard mid-range load.

It is true though. A lot of the older guns and older knives just have a more finished feel to them with their rounding, flowing lines. I've had good luck with recent Case knives, but they are often a bit too edgy. That is one thing I like about a Queen or S&M trapper versus a Case trapper. The former are a bit trimmer and lighter. But even those aren't as sculpted as the older pieces.

Y'all forgot to mention that wonderful piece of shotgun history that finally was put to rest because it cost too much to produce, the Winchester Model 12. Made to last a good long time, fast to handle, and beautifully made. You won't find that type of workmanship in the rack at WallyWorld, assuming it's one of the Wallys that still carries guns.

Just rambling, remembering and regretting a bit with the rest of ya. Now if I can just find an older Marlin 39A, a blued, Ruger Security Six, and a nice little pinned, S&W kit gun in .22 lr or .22 mag., all in good shape, priced decently, and at a time when I can managed to snag them. :D

Darn we're a bunch of crotchety reprobates, ain't we?:thumbup: :D
 
Hmmm, only three channels and if you can't pay for it you don't get it. Heck, that's my life now! I've got the fence wired up as a field expedient antenna; reception gets a bit rough when a storm is rolling in. Between some ex's on mine and my wife's side, some setbacks, and the parts we screwed up, our credit isn't that great. So, we either lay it away where we can, pay for it when we got it, or do without it. My car may be an 86 Pontiac Bonneville, with only a 108K original miles on it, but it is in pretty nice shape and even more important, it is paid for. There was a time, with another wife I had big truck payments, her car payments, and all that other stuff. I can live without all that.

Speaking of a S&W Mod 19 (pinned barrel), which by the way is the gun that got me really started in gun gathering, though I'd always had a gun or two around before, I'll be doing a trade for an earlier Mod 66 later this week. Yeah, I know, it's stainless. I've finally gotten to where I can appreciate a stainless handgun a bit. However, it came into my favorite shop and it just felt soooo good in the hand I had to call them back and tell them to hold it till I could get in. It'll make a nice double action stable mate to the New Vaquero in the same caliber. I will have to give Ruger some credit on that one. Enough CAS types were telling them what they didn't like about the Vaquero and Ruger listened. They went back to the smaller frame and the old XR3 grip, fixed it so that when you hear the click while rotating the cylinder the chamber is lined up, shaped the hammer a little better, and darn if the thing doesn't come from the factory with an easy pulling hammer and a decent trigger pull. Even the fixed sights have a good sight picture, better than some modern adjustables I seen. Best thing is that with the polished stainless and the black, checkered, hard rubber type grips, it looks like a nickled SAA from the late 1800/early 1900s. Oh, and it points like a dream. It doesn't have that old four click when you draw back the hammer, but I'd learned to live with it. Now to just get that EMF Hartford, 1892 Winchester repro to go along with it. The full length, octagon barreled one that hangs just right and has a darn good buckhorn sight set-up on it. I mean, you can actually draw a good sight picture with those "old-fashioned" iron sights. That'll go good with the pre-safety 1894 Marlin and Super Blackhawk (4 5/8 barrel) in .44 Mag.. Gonna have to start loading again so I can do my standard mid-range load.

It is true though. A lot of the older guns and older knives just have a more finished feel to them with their rounding, flowing lines. I've had good luck with recent Case knives, but they are often a bit too edgy. That is one thing I like about a Queen or S&M trapper versus a Case trapper. The former are a bit trimmer and lighter. But even those aren't as sculpted as the older pieces.

Y'all forgot to mention that wonderful piece of shotgun history that finally was put to rest because it cost too much to produce, the Winchester Model 12. Made to last a good long time, fast to handle, and beautifully made. You won't find that type of workmanship in the rack at WallyWorld, assuming it's one of the Wallys that still carries guns.

Just rambling, remembering and regretting a bit with the rest of ya. Now if I can just find an older Marlin 39A, a blued, Ruger Security Six, and a nice little pinned, S&W kit gun in .22 lr or .22 mag., all in good shape, priced decently, and at a time when I can managed to snag them. :D

Darn we're a bunch of crotchety reprobates, ain't we?:thumbup: :D

I agree, the new vaquero is a sweet pistol, loks great,feels great and way cheaper than an old SAA Colt. Re: the model 12, they are a great shotgun, and the new production guns don't even come close. I used to collect Winchesters and the last shotgun I had was a 1897 black diamond trap 16 ga.
Had a fair number of model 70 pre-64's too, what a sweet rifle. They have that quality feel to them, the actions are glass smooth and they even used to actually use nice wood for the stocks, I've got nicer fenceposts than most of the wood stocks the make now. My pride and joy is an early Colt frontier single action 22 with stag grips.Still in the box with all the papers and hang tag. My grandad bought it new and eventually handed it down to me. :D
Well enough rambling for a while
 
My Grandfather's old 1886 .33 Winchester, compared to a modern (post 64)Winchester lever gun...not even close. The 1886 is smooth as glass, and no it is not worn; they just spent more time and pride in products back then, they were not 100% focus on profit/volume.
 
My Grandfather's old 1886 .33 Winchester, compared to a modern (post 64)Winchester lever gun...not even close. The 1886 is smooth as glass, and no it is not worn; they just spent more time and pride in products back then, they were not 100% focus on profit/volume.

They were made by craftsmen who did a lot of fitting and finishing by hand, and actually took pride in the product they made... Well we all know what happened to Winchester in the end.. :(
 
Well, skipped the S&W M66 I was a bit iffy on it. So, my bolt action is safe at home with some ideas for customizing floating in my head.

338375, that old 97 sounds just sweet, and a good gauge to boot. My last Model 12 was a milled-rip trap gun with Pigeon Grade wood on it. Talk about beautiful flame in the wood when you rolled it in the light. Thing had a trigger like a good rifle. I had to dry fire a few times to get used to it again if I had recently shot another shotgun just so I wouldn't touch it off early and shoot the trap house.

I almost had a moment of euphoria at the shop though. There was a S&W M25-5, 45 Colt sitting on the just came in shelf, blued and pinned. Sadly, it looked like it has seen a little too much use and perhaps with heavy loads. Bummer.

Reprobates all the way!
 
Maybe not quite crotchety but reprobate all the way.


I am sitting at my computer work bench trying to fix a few friends and neighbors 'puters and have been working on my Dad's Camillus US Army Air Corps Knife and fondleing my Colt Woodsman. They are not made like this much any more.
 
JK I love reading your posts. And I agree with the majority of what you have to say (not all.... but most) All I would add is this.....I wonder what my great Grandad would have said about my Grandads first locking blade. I never saw my Grandad carry anything but a one blade "hunter" pattern until he bought a Buck 110. Not long after that he bought me a Buck 110 for my birthday.

He gave me the speech "take care of you new knife Son and it will take care or you.... and ohh yea... give me a penny"

After he picked up the Buck 110, I didn't see the old slip joint (or at least he didn't use it as often) after that.

Some things change for the worst, some don't. A lot of knives (including the buck 110) have gone downhill, can't argue with that...... but at the same time it's a different world out there. There are time when we all have to roll with it like it or not.

None the less..... great thread as always JK.
 
Now gents.....

Most craftmanship did seem to be better "back then"...but there are some great guns and knives being made today.....

A Henry rifle.....

4c8bbfa.jpg


A nice fixed blade by David Winston.....

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Both made here in the U.S.A. by craftsman who care, at a remarkably fair price.

Don't give up just yet. :thumbup: :)

Bill
 
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