knives that broke from 'tradition'?

hardheart

hardheart

Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
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Hoping you guys will tolerate this to let me gather some info on something I am working on in my collecting. I am trying to get knives that make up sort of an evolution of the modern folder, which is of course outside this sub-forum's description, and I won't be bringing up most of the knives I have sought with this theme in mind. But what I would like your help with is identifying the earlier, perhaps 'transitional', knives.

As I have read here before, you guys know what is and isn't traditional, that it isn't so simply rattled off as bullet points in a description. I have a Spyderco Worker, and that in a few ways I think obviously doesn't fit as a traditional, but then I have a couple of knives that pre-date it that I think lead to the market being as it is today. I have a '64 Buck 110, and one of the micarta lockback Al Mar SEREs. Neither of these have pocket clips, both are bolstered, and the Buck has brass and wood. I think it is more or less accepted that the Buck has a place with traditionals, and I think the SERE was a 'tactical' step beyond it just a couple years before Spyderco did their thing (79 to 81, I think). So I wonder if the Buck is appropriate to my theme, and if so was there something before it as well. Something like a Mercator, or a navaja, a single bladed locking folder like that? Or does something non-locking come into play, like the Douk-douk? Or all those basically traditionals in a full sense? I'm asking about specific knives, but also maybe if there was a trend before the 70s or 80s other than switchblades that wasn't traditional as most here define it.

I ask here because I figure you guys will best know what is most fitting for traditional vs non, rather than in general discussion where it may only be a matter of time period or materials that people think about without the nuance of the times and perceptions. Feel free to lock it if this won't work.
 
The use of synthetic materials was pretty popular with the introduction of the Sod Buster. It may have been used before though.
 
good point, I was wondering specifically when micarta was first used on folders, since I read Randall at least has used it on fixed blades since 59-60.
 
What about the introduction of one-piece hollow scales and bolsters? Done entirely for cheapness and ease of manufacture, but revolutionary in its time.
 
hardheart said:
Can you give an example?
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Imperial, Richards of Sheffield, Jowika in Ireland, etc. There used to be loads of these knives around at the cheap-end of the market, some are pretty collectible today.
 
I remember when Gerber and others started using the FRN type materials on mostly traditional type folders (lightweght versions) and the introduction of the Al Mar, Osprey, Falcon, Hawk, Eagle series which was an evolutionary trend I believe. Then there was the Gerber Paul with the (still) unique locking system and it had ivory micarta as one of the handle cover options.

I may not be on your wavelength though.

Ed J
 
Sorry, I meant specific knives and materials. I can only think more along the one piece steel handles like the Mercator and Douk douk I mentioned - but if they have some mass-produced synthetics, that would actually be a nice precursor to the example of the first frn handled folder I have.

ETA: That's quite close, TLARbb. I don't have a Paul because I am trying not to get into specific locks. With there being just so many kinds and many covered by patent, I think that means individually their impact is less. The idea that something like the 110 made folders with locks of all kinds popular is more what I am thinking about. Although I am considering trying to track down something that shows how liner locks got from my TL-29s to what Michael Walker developed. Is the TL-29 the earliest example of the brass liner lock?
 
The Swedish barrel knife been around for long time and has a unique locking system. Imperial made a folding fishing knife with a leaf lock. It needed to lock because there was a scaler on the back of the blade. Some of the sailor folders had a lockable marlinspike.
 
OK, so you're looking for the earliest, or precursors to the earliest, "tactical"/modern folders?

Are you planning on setting up a history of the transition form traditional to modern folders?
 
TLARbb said:
I remember when Gerber and others started using the FRN type materials on mostly traditional type folders (lightweght versions) and the introduction of the Al Mar, Osprey, Falcon, Hawk, Eagle series which was an evolutionary trend I believe. Then there was the Gerber Paul with the (still) unique locking system and it had ivory micarta as one of the handle cover options.

I may not be on your wavelength though.

Ed J
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I think you're right on the wave length, Ed. The Gerber LST was ground breaking as it was the first of the light weight lock blades using the synthetic as the substructure of the knife. No bolsters, no liners. Still beong made today for those who want a tough rugged little knife that will cut, and the heck with aesthetics.

Carl.
 
Chris Pierce said:
OK, so you're looking for the earliest, or precursors to the earliest, "tactical"/modern folders?

Are you planning on setting up a history of the transition form traditional to modern folders?
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maybe sorta, :) My focus is on the single blade locking folder, and how technology has affected the construction and features. But I'm trying not to get too deep in the weeds, this is mostly just going to be a bunch of knives sitting on my shelves, only this time with some thought into them as a collective rather than a bunch of things I thought looked good. I personally don't have the knowledge to make this fully comprehensive, but I am trying to learn what I can about timelines in the use of various steels, materials, and features for the modern knife. How well I can tie that into the classics is what I am hoping to figure out in this thread.
 
Ah ha. Sounds like a fun endeavor And an interesting history lesson. I'm sorry that I can't help since I don't know much about the transition. By the time I came around single bladed one hand opening locking folders were pretty much the norm.
 
Transition in knives has been ongoing since the beginning of knives. There are examples of iron where phosphorous was added to reduce corrosion back to around 400 AD. What would be considered SS today dates to around 1900.

As for handle materials plastics date to around 1870, phenolic resins shortly thereafter and Micarta, which is much older than most think, dates to 1910. Case was using synthetics in the Tested Era, 1920-40 if not sooner. I have a couple of Wostenholm knives with synthetic scales dating right around 1900.

Point being that evolution and transition has been continuous over knife making history. You can find all sorts of locking devices throughout cutlery history. Where was the transition from a TL-29 (older examples exist) to an Emerson CQC-7, both have liner locks and synthetic scales (some). One traditional and one not.

Where was the transition from a 100 year old EO Jack and a current Spyderco Kiwi. One put a cutout in the handle the other on the blade and the handle. One traditional and one not.

Not so sure you can get very specific with labeling a knife a Transitional piece.

EDIT: Sorry Hardheart, I did not see your last post while I was typing this. Single blade locking folders date at least into the mid 1800's with many variations on the theme.
 
I suspect this thread could push the boundaries of "traditional" but I sure do hope it stays here as long as possible so long as the focus in on making the link from traditional to the emergence of the modern lockers. I think once the discussion moves beyond the first moderns though, it should be taken up elsewhere. Just my 2 cents on that. Mods decide, obviously.

Some of the knives I would toss into the mix.

The Spanish Navaja is an obvious one. There's a great Wikipedia article on them that's a must read. Along side of this, there's the Opinel which added the lockring in the 50s. I would love to know if besides these 2 designs, if there were any other locking folders commonly used by workers.

I would also look at the "Folding Hunter" pattern. There's one listed in the 1934 Schrade catalog (see the Schrades-r-us web site). This obviously evolved to the liner lock versions in the 70s under the Uncle Henry and Old Timer lines. I believe the locking version first appeared in the 1971 Schrade catalog. I would be very interested to learn about the older versions of the folding hunter. I can't believe Schrade made the first. Regardless, hard to imagine the Buck 110 emerging without the slip-joint Folding Hunter with the big clip blade first appearing.

And of course, as others have mentioned, you need to include the Buck 110 and the Buck 112. I seem to recall reading a story about the Buck 112 being introduced in response to a Navy regulation that put a 3" max on folding knives after a brawl on a ship in which several Buck 110s were used. More broadly, it would be nice to see more discussion/documention on the use of the Buck 110 as a weapon among the motorcycle gangs in the 70s. Discussed in Levine's book? In any event, I think this usage might be important to capture/think about if we're looking at the bridge to the modern tacticals. The Buck 110 was a work knife and a weapon, just like the Navaja.
 
Ya know, dependin' on how far yer willin' to stretch the relationship but considerin' all folders come from fixed blades, ya can start with theo evolution of blade shapes on fixed blades and how that transitioned to the folding knife.
 
If I recall correctly, the LST was a lightweight evolution of the Folding Sportsman I. I have an advertising knife which is a lightweight version of their "Classic" (I had one of those too, but haven't seen it in years). I didn't sell it; just don't know what happened to it. Probably take an archealogical dig in our storage areas to find it. Might be years before that happens.

I also have a Gerber Utility and exchange blade that uses an FRN or similar handle material with their "bolt action" lock. It has no nail nick, no hole, no stud; intended to be opened by pinching. I believe with practice manipulating the lock, you might be able to flick it open, but no spring assist, indeed no spring at all that I can see. I think it's a fine knife, but I haven't shown it here because I think it too far from our idea of "traditional".

Again, I think of this knife as an evolutionary knife toward the current what I call contemporary styles. I am not trying at all to say no one else played in this arena, but at the time I didn't know about them or have any experience with them. In that time frame I was a Gerber nut and still like their knives from that era; not so much their newer stuff.

I could make further comments about other knife companies, but I know those comments would likely move this in a direction we don't want to go.
 
T. Erdelyi said:
Ya know, dependin' on how far yer willin' to stretch the relationship but considerin' all folders come from fixed blades, ya can start with theo evolution of blade shapes on fixed blades and how that transitioned to the folding knife.
Click to expand...

I have read that the Romans are credited with the earliest examples of folding knives. That doesn't mean they invented them, but that the oldest examples they have originated from them. Personlly, I have no doubt that they would be having the same conversations that we are having today.

"You know Mercutio, since going to the work at the Office of Tribute, I just don't need to carry a dagger or my favorite hunter anymore. They are just too big for my daily chores of breaking the wax seals on communications, cutting parchment and cutting up my lunch. A smaller knife works a lot better for me these days. Have you seen some of those new folding knives floating around in the market these days? They look pretty portable to me, and some seem pretty useful. I am finding that as I get older I need less knife."

"That may work for you, but I need a bigger knife. I have looked at those folders, and they look handy. But I never know what I will be using my knife for these days and I would rather have more knife than I need rather than not enough for the task. Besides, I saw a couple of those, and they were all forged, handle and blade. I think of myself as a traditionalist, and I like to haft my fixed blade with the antler from my biggest buck of the year. I can't stand all metal handles."

"I'm just saying that I feel silly carrying around a fixed blade at the office these days. No one else does and they seem out of place on my robe belt. They even alarm some of the gentry when they see them at work."

"Well, to heck with those guys. I was raised out in the country, and do my chores and work my sheep all day with every task imaginable coming up. As skittish as the sheep are with all the new road building going on by my farm, when I whip out my knife to cut something it doesn't even scare my sheep. Surely the people can't be more nervous that my nervous sheep..."

"They don't scare as easy with a plain folding knife, and it actually doesn't upset that many people. You know, down here in the southern regions lots of folks still carry all kinds of knives. But lately I have picked up a folding knife with a locking device on it. It seems more safe, but if the lock fails I might cut off a finger if I am not careful. I think if I use it like my regular folder I will be OK, though. But the click of the knife locking seems to frighten some of the folks as they think it has converted the knife to some kind of tactical weapon."

"What? Why would they think that? If anyone was silly enough to use a knife that folded in two in the first place, why wouldn't they want some kind of safety device on it?"

"Some seem to say that by locking the blade in place it converts a folding knife into a fixed blade, so they view it as more of a large tool or even a weapon."

"Yeah, right. What knothead would think that? I was in the Legion for almost 20 years and never saw a knife that folded in two on purpose. How is a knife that has a blade that folds over a weapon? Or even a tool? If you want a knife, get a knife. Real men use fixed blades."

"You are too old fashioned. I can fold this little gem up, stick it in my robes, and with a little discretion, no one even knows I have it with me. Besides, did you see the little inlays on the metal sides?. Sweet inlays, right? I think the inlays are some kind of dyed bone or some such. Hubert The Hafter told me that this may be some kind of limited edition of this knife, but I didn't pay extra for it. And I had Romulus The Engraver put my initials right there on the pivot next to the number."

"I dunno, it looks like a nice knife, and seems fairly sturdy. But I bet that set you back some serious denarius. I would hate to have a knife like that get all scratched up or even broken."

"Not a problem for me, my friend. All my knives are users."

"What??? Baloney. You have had that knife for two years and it is still prettier than my wife's best jewelry!"

"OK, well, I didn't say what I used it for, did I? Sure is pretty, though. Sometimes I just sit and look at it."

"Whatever floats your trireme, buddy."

I can hear it, even back then. :D

Robert
 
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