Knives / weapons - My concern as a knifemaker...

[Jason Cutter]

Could moderators please move this to the appropriate spot if this is not the best place for it... thanks.

I just came across a Sticky in another subforum, relating to some knifemaker's products / work being purchased and featured in a book about covert weapons. The gist was that the validity of knives in general society was being questioned or being depicted in a bad light. Instead of being valuable and essential tools knives and related edged items were being portrayed as dangerous weapons in the hands of the "bad guys." Makers who sold items that ended up featured in the book felt ripped off and "set up."

Its a topic that I have been concerned about for a long time. As a knifemaker, I have decided on a position that I would abide by local laws regarding knives, regardless of my own opinion about those laws. To me, that represents a major restriction in the types of knives I can make / design as part of my artistic expression, but goes with the territory. (Includes balisongs, daggers, push daggers, autos, disguised blades etc. )

My question is - is it reasonable for a maker / company to make and sell knives / edged tools that are primarily designed as weapons / anti-personnel devices, and then expect to NOT attract criticism from the many "folks" out there who inherently dislike this sort of stuff.

Personally, I couldn't be bothered about this sort of thing. I have a medical career to protect and a family to support. And I'd like to keep making knives MY WAY for a long time more... My own position on this is clear (at least to myself).

But what do others think ? I'm keen to hear others' views on this matter.

Thanks in advance. Jason.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

My question is - is it reasonable for a maker / company to make and sell knives / edged tools that are primarily designed as weapons / anti-personnel devices, and then expect to NOT attract criticism from the many "folks" out there who inherently dislike this sort of stuf.

I think that any company that promotes their knives as weapons should expect criticism from the knife control lobby. In today's climate you are just asking for trouble if you do this.

Making knives that are designed as weapons is not so much the problem. Advertising them as weapons is. It could definitely lead to repercussions if one of these knives is used to kill someone and the prosecutor could show that the company promoted their knives as weapons to be used to kill.

 

[Trout Tamer]

Jason Cutter,

You have posed some very interesting and valid questions. I am an aspiring knifemaker and, as such, have an intrinsic interest in this discussion. Before I started making knives, I was a knife enthusiast and erst-while (as money permitted) knife collector. So, I can look at this issue from at least two angles.

Your question is, "is it reasonable for a maker / company to make and sell knives / edged tools that are primarily designed as weapons / anti-personnel devices, and then expect to NOT attract criticism from the many "folks" out there who inherently dislike this sort of stuff."

Well, here is my take. In short, a maker/company can expect public criticism if they make an object designed primarily as a weapon. But, here is my interpretation of that: modern, "civilized" society views weapons as evil objects. In the westernized world, there is a public consciousness that relates weapons and conflict with inherent evil. This is a dangerous misconception. As we all know, any object, even a hand or leg, can be turned into a weapon. However, the media has chosen to portray knives, specifically knives, as intrinsically evil objects. Watch any movie and if a knife makes an appearance at all, it's portrayed in a bad light. As people, if we see something often enough, we begin to believe it, due simply to repeated exposure.
I think that it is UNREASONABLE (lacking in sensible, real-world rationale) to view a knife as only a weapon. The public, directly influenced by the media playing on unreasonable emotion, has been brought to the conclusion that edged objects are only useful in physical conflict. Piggy-backing this notion is also the misconcept that all fighting, regrdless of reason or method undertaken, is evil and should be avoided. Therefore, the general public criticizes knife makers unreasonably.

 

[Roodog]

The idea of blaming a manufacturer for a crime commited with a knife because it was advertised as a weapon is sickening. Some individuals may actually need weapons (soldiers, LEOs, average people in dangerous situation). These individual must be reached by the maker in order for the product to be sold (advertising). If some thug or lowlife aquires such weapon and commites a violent crime, they are solely responsible for there actions.
If a buy a shot gun (advertised as a weapon to kill deer) and then go poach deer outside of the hunting season with no permit can I blame the manufacturer? I mean it was advertised as tool for killing deer.

 

[Gollnick]

My question is - is it reasonable for a maker / company to make and sell knives / edged tools that are primarily designed as weapons / anti-personnel devices, and then expect to NOT attract criticism from the many "folks" out there who inherently dislike this sort of stuff.

Of course not. Our world has become filled with people who see in black and white and are very vocal if you come up on the wrong side of that "spectrum." There are people who see all knives with the exception of table and kitchen as evil and they will vocally attack anyone who makes, sells, or owns such knives.

Don't try to tell them that a Portland-area police officer shot and killed a woman just a few days ago who lashed at him with a knife. It was a kitchen knife. But that is not, in the eyes of these people, a weapon even if the person holding it is attacking a police officer with it. You see, these people focus on the thing, not on the behavior of the person using it. In the eyes of these people, it is evil-looking knives that kill people, not other people.




There is a legitimate need for weapons and anti-personnel devices in the world around us. That officer corned by a woman lashing at him with a knife certainly needed one and was, I'm sure, thankful to have one with him.

 

[Trout Tamer]

"There is a legitimate need for weapons and anti-personnel devices in the world around us."

Exactly. Most people, however, have been brainwashed (yes, the big "B" ) into believing the opposite.

 

[Jason Cutter]

Thanks for those quick and early responses. They reflect many of my own thoughts on the issue.

One thing I notice is that some makers / companies exploit the negative feedback and criticism to increase their sales and desirability. "Theres no such thing as bad press... theres only more exposure." The cascade effect it has on other makers / manufacturers in terms of mis-representation of the knifemaking craft is very much a secondary issue. I personally find this "me first" attitude disheartening, but have come to accept that business is business, and for SOME people, anything goes.

The litigation asepct is worrying and I would have thought, SHOULD have been enough to encourage makers to reconsider their marketing strategy. I don't want to see talented and enterprising knifemakers / manufacturers taken down because of the wording on their ads or the names of their knives, or the shapes of the blades...

For the record, I myself make knives intended directly for military and service personnel. I proudly do so. I operate on the premise that weapons are actually tools that turned out to be weapons under the right / wrong circumstances, and they are no smarter / more effective than the person operating it. In essence, theres a time and place for everything.

Jason.

 

[Gollnick]

I agree and I certainly dislike the ads that certain knife manufacturers run along those lines. I dislike those ads for two reasons: first, they portray knives in a very violent way which raises controversy and also becomes a barrier to entry to some people. One of the basic rules for persuasive communications is, "begin in a friendly way." When you begin by thowing stuff into people's faces that you know that they are going to find offensive, you alienate your audience from the beginning, you put them on the defensive, and no persuasion is possible. And, second, they reflect back negatively on the knife community because the existance of these ads suggests that this is the sort of thing that appeals to this community, that we're all a bunch of armchair commandos secretly dreaming of "deanimation missions." In fact, most of us admire knives for some combination of their ascetics and utility and harbor no fantasies about "slashing our way through the mob because we've run out of ammo" much less "stabbing through aircraft skins or comm-block body-armor." For most of us, "strategically-placed blood groves to control blood-spray" are not something we actively seek in a knife. Yet if someone unfamiliar with knives and the knife community opens a popular knife-oriented magazine and the first thing he sees in an ad touting just that, he could get the wrong impression and may not bother looking further.

 

[JDBLADE]

In many ways I could not agree with you more. My view is quite simple "makers do not make weapons - people make weapons out of knives/tools". When I was making knives I never set out to make a knife as a weapon and now that I am selling knives I never sell a knife as a weapon. In my advertising of knives I never mention, as others do, the attack or defensive capabilities of a knife. As it is illegal to carry knives in our state for self-defence I never sell a knife for self defence.

But what is of concern to me is the way the "knife media" go out of their way to advertise and promote knives as weapons. In our current climate I find this irresponsible as it just what the anti-knife lobby is looking for. We have enough problems with politicians and "wowsers" without giving them a "weapon" to beat us over the head with. There are enough legitimate uses for knives without having to resort to the offensive or defensive nature of knives. By legitimate I am referring to the "legal" use of knives.

People make weapons out of knives just as they do out of screwdrivers and hammers.

 

[STR]

If knives were outlawed along with guns everyone of us would be criminals. I think it would be much the way it is with other illegal substances. Pot is the number one cash crop in most states from what I hear. I suspect it would be much the same if weapons were banned. They wouldn't go away I can assure you of that.

My brother is a prison guard. He tells me that at any given time over half the prison population is running around with illegal substances and weapons. Think of that on a mass scale for a moment.

No, I think the powers that be know that most Americans are content to let them be so long as they don't step over the line with the power they are allowed. There is and always has been a very big sleeping giant out there (that being the power of the people when backed into a corner) and if my guess is right the powers that be want that giant to remain in slumber or at the least somewhat drowsy. Taking away our weapons would surely awaken that giant and they don't want that at all.

These groups you speak of are just given their token space on the floor to speak their mind and then laughed at behind the scenes I'm sure.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

The idea of blaming a manufacturer for a crime commited with a knife because it was advertised as a weapon is sickening. Some individuals may actually need weapons (soldiers, LEOs, average people in dangerous situation). These individual must be reached by the maker in order for the product to be sold (advertising). If some thug or lowlife aquires such weapon and commites a violent crime, they are solely responsible for there actions.

Great answer.

"Some individuals may actually need weapons (soldiers, LEOs, average people in dangerous situation). These individual must be reached by the maker in order for the product to be sold (advertising)."

That's all of us.

I can buy a knife as a tool, like a Spyderco DoDo or a multitool or SAK, that is definitely NOT designed or advertised for use as a weapon.

I can buy a knife like a MOD CQD which is a typical tactical folder and is perfect for utility use in first responder situations, breaking glass, cutting seat belts -- or fighting. It is a Close Quarters Defense (!) knife.

It is legal, it is legitimate, and it can be a life-saver.

Advertising by responsible companies can draw attention to legitimately tactical knives without hyping aspects of combat that belong more in cheap movies. People who overstate the gore and conflict aren't part of our community, they only feed on the fringes of it, and leave their trash behind to reflect badly on us.

Knifemakers who don't need the aggravation are better off stressing the utility aspect of their knives, and letting those in the know decide for themselves what self-defense need those knives might fill. Custom makers especially can easily correspond with reliable customers in designing specialized blades, and should not have to hype the more lurid aspects of knife use.

But we should not apologize to the world for the value of the tools we own that have been designed as knives have always been for self-defense. When challenged on this, ask, and ask very assertively, if what the person is challenging is really knives or the right to self-defense itself.

 

[Jason Cutter]

they reflect negatively on the knife community ... these ads suggests that this is the sort of thing that appeals to this community, that we're all a bunch of armchair commandos secretly dreaming of "deanimation missions." In fact, most of us admire knives for some combination of their ascetics and utility and harbor no fantasies about "slashing our way through the mob because we've run out of ammo" much less "stabbing through aircraft skins or comm-block body-armor." For most of us, "strategically-placed blood groves to control blood-spray" are not something we actively seek in a knife. Yet if someone unfamiliar with knives and the knife community opens a popular knife-oriented magazine and the first thing he sees in an ad touting just that, he could get the wrong impression and may not bother looking further.

Gollnick, it looks like we are thinking of the same ad ... !

On a similar thread some time ago about "tactical" knives and their populrity amongst COLLECTORS, it was said that certainly the "fantasy" component in the desirability of a knife is an important aspect of marketing, but it needs to be advertised SENSIBLY.

I sometimes wonder if as a knife-related community, we tend to become quite insular and inward-looking, and can develop a tendency towards a mob-mentality. With ads like the one mentioned above, I think most of us on the forums here understand what its about. But its not always just a case of preaching to the converted. Like it or not, in the public arena (and EVERYTHING is in the public these days), there are outsiders watching. We need to alwasy be sensitive to that and sometimes restrain ourselves. Ie.- behave appropriately. Everything we do has some sort of wider influence and ripple effect.

I'll have to get off my soapbox before it breaks. Jason.

 

[Planterz]

You can expect criticism, but it'll come from people who's opinion you shouldn't value in the first place. Uninformed, ignorant, sheep.

 

[I.V]

"is it reasonable for a maker / company to make and sell knives / edged tools that are primarily designed as weapons / anti-personnel devices, and then expect to NOT attract criticism from the many "folks" out there who inherently dislike this sort of stuff. "

it is very reasonable to sell & promote knives, but to the right audience.
let me tell you right know that as a military man i need a knife as a weapon (but at home i carrey a spyderco cricket).
it's a "work knife", feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but i'm probably not the only soldier in the world who's seen & sees combat regulary.
the promotion of knives as weapons, or to be exact, last ditch self defense tools should be aimed at specific personnel & the tools themselves should be sold to those specific personnel only as well.
i doubt that companies selling these knives to military personnel only would take much criticism.

i had some trouble with how to fraze this post, i hope no one takes it the wrong way.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I.V, you phrased it fine. But are soldiers the only people who need weapons for self defense?

I used to carry a dagger or other large knife walking home through Central Park in New York City at night. I never had trouble with people there, but I was approached by dogs, one of them very unfriendly. (I got rid of him without any damage to either of us )

In America, we have a principle we are supposed to follow, that as long as I don't threaten anyone else, I don't have to justify my possessions by what I need, only by what I want. We've been getting away from this principle, and I'm not happy that everywhere I go, people are making rules that only make them feel good, and make me less secure.

When all of us honest citizens are disarmed, only soldiers and criminals will have to power to defend themselves or compel the rest of us.

 

[I.V]

i'm not saying that soldiers are the onlt ones who need weapons for self defense.
first of all, with proper training anything you can think of can be used as a weapon of self defense, the problem begins when someone makes such a weapon that has the potential to be lethal & markets it to the general public as just that.
that product begins to appeal to those with less than good intentions & maybe just those who are stupid or ignorant.
what i mean is, when someone wants to buy a weapon than he plans to use it as a weapon no matter if his intentions are good (possible self defense) or bad (to hurt someone on purpose).
you can buy a knife or you can buy a weapon, i think it is best that the general public will buy knives.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Actually, what we've seen here is, the knives we buy as "tactical" or "fighting knives" all tend to be pretty expensive from the viewpoint of the general public.

They won't pay those prices. Most knife attacks in the US are with simple kitchen knives or cheap imported folders.

It's true, some of the rare but more ridiculous ads might encourage someone to think about knives to intimidate others, but these are people looking for trouble anyway.

 

[I.V]

if you look at a lot of stores & just about any flea market a lot of cheap imports a sold as survivel, tactical or fighting knives just to attract the customers.
it would be best anyway if knives won't be instatly related to as weapons.
i think it'll also help most collectors in terms of law if there was a distinction (both in promotion & marketing) between fighting knives & "regular" knives.

 

[fedaykincmndr]

Well, I think we've all come across a subject that's been argued and debated about more than once. So, as a former Marine, I'm going to get on my soapbox.
As an American I for one feel as though my rights are being infringed. A knife is a tool, plain and simple. It may be used for a variety of different chores, jobs, and purposes; killing being one of these. In no way is a tactical knife, fighter, utiliy, survival knife any different from one made specifically for "killing." I could go to a knife store, pick up a Henckels kitchen knife, and do the same amount of damage/work with it as I could a MOD or CS. It's absolutely RIDICULOUS that the majority of the public views knives as these horrific death-giving sharp pointey things. Heck, I even had Marine buddies of mine, say "Da** man, your carrying that?!" and it was a 4" blade!!
Society, most especially American society, has become weak and afraid of everything that could possibly cause harm to another. I could kill someone with a pen for pete's sake, and it's not because "I was trained to do so" but because if I felt that I were threatened or had the inclination to do so, I would. It's called TEMPER AND INTENT!! I have the intent to hurt you so I will do so by whatever means nessicary, no if's and's or but's about it. If someone wants to harm another human being they will do so, REGARDLESS of their weapon of choice. What will it take for people to understand that you can take the "weapons" away but the intentions and mannerisms of HUMANS WILL NOT CHANGE. It is and has been since the beginning of time HUMAN NATURE to destroy and kill. No one but God Himself can change that! The second sin of mankind was murder. Do these people honestly think that by taking "weapons" away they can bring peace?! There are no weapons! There are tools, YET the way in which you USE something makes it a weapon!!! :grumpy:

KNIVES ARE TOOLS!!! No matter what their design, length, or make; they are tools, and if you take them away then humans will find another way to harm one another. One last thing, I don't know one human being on the face of this planet that can live without ANY type of knife. Some of us just decide to take our kitchen knives with us in a different form.

One last thought, I'm getting really tired of these "world peace, free love, tree hugging" hippy activists telling me I can't carry a blade cause it makes them think that I'm a bad guy and want to go on a blood crazed rampage. Shut up and suck it up, then go into your house and tell me you don't own a blade. Then you can say something because I carry a TOOL of Basic Human Existence!!!!! *gets off soapbox*

 

[george tichbourne]

As a knifemaker I have developed philosophy that reconciles my vocation with a real need in society.

Premise #1 Knives are necessary to society as we know it for preparation of food, preparation of living quarters, preparation of clothing, and so on and so on, in short knives in some form are used in all aspects of our lives.

Premise #2 Everything can be used as a weapon, toys(cricket bats), tools(hammers), clothing(drawstrings for garrots), yes even knives so knives themselves are not necessarily destined to become weapons.

Given the two basic principles, my means of earning a living benefits society more than it threatens it so if society doesn't like it I can live with that.

As to advertising my product as a weapon, I have done a market analysis and decided that the knife as a weapon segment is too small to devote valuable advertising budget to. I have decided to devote those advertising dollars to the food preparation market because the demand is greater and percentage return per unit is equal.

There is always some nervousness when the general public and the press encounter my product at a show or at my own store but it doesn't take long for them to accept the knife being an essential tool in our society instead of as a weapon. The result is usually very positive coverage in the mainstream press.

Am I worried about negative unsolicited publicity in a fringe publication.....given the amount of attention that most of these attract the answer is no.