Knives with flaws, selling, marketing, etc

Chiro75

Chiro75

Joined
Feb 4, 1999
Messages
5,786
While I know everyone strives for perfection, we all (well, some of us at least) make perfectly fine knives with some flaws. Maybe a few scratches that didn't get removed in the blade finish or a grind that is a little off compared to the other side, etc. Whenever someone buys one of my knives, I feel like I spend maybe too long pointing out all of the little things that could be better on the knife (maybe even stuff a normal person wouldn't notice). I've never had anyone regret buying one of my knives or call me saying "This thing is a mess and it looked great in the pictures..." but I'm curious how you handle it. Like I said, I give a very clear description and I also have a return period (if they get it and send it back in the exact same condition within a few days of receiving it I'll do a full refund, no questions asked) which is pretty dummy proof, but when you sell a knife do you tend to emphasize the little things here and there that aren't quite perfect, or do you tend to let the buyer figure that out for themselves?
 
We are all trying to make a flawless knife and go to great lengths to do so. We have invested time and money that may well be spent on other things that could be more important like braces for the kid or a better house for the little woman but instead we spend too much time trying to do perfect work. The customer who buys our finished product is paying for a piece that is the best we can do at this time of our endevor. I always point out the spots Im not happy with. The next one will be better. The makers that dont strive to make them better each time will drop off because they are not dedicated enough to advance their skills. Bill Morans early knives are not flawless.
 
There's not a perfect knife made, I've seen some that were pretty darn close though. There's some things that are not excuseable (IMO) if your making and selling knives. Scratches from coarse belts are one, untested heat treated knives is another. There's several imperfections that need to be made as perfect as possible, the center of the plunge cuts at the ricasso for example, needs to be real close, blade/guard joints need to be tight and neat. When I see a knife with poor fit and finish, I think right away, the maker in unknowledgeable or lazy. Not a good resume if you want to make a living at making knives.

I believe if your going to sell knives you owe it to the craft, the profession and more importantly to the buyer to make high quality before you resort to selling. There's to many people that have been turned away from custom made knives because they bought from makers that didn't take the time to get better, and that they started selling # 3 or 4. Each knife will improve from the one before and so on, but you need to make a very good piece before you start the selling game. Another thing, selling low quality knives will also hurt you reputation and advancement up the selling ladder, both in price increases and demand. Think about that before you sell to early.

Just my opinions,

Bill
 
I imagine the price point makes a difference, too. People would expect different things from a $1200 knife than they would a $135 one, I suspect.
 
I wouldn't mind buying a makers rejects, as long as I know the knives will still perform at almost the same quality as the regular knives, and that the rejects are identified somehow.
 
Those aren't 'flaws', those are natural imperfections that only add to the beauty and individuality of the piece. If you wan't a 'perfect' knife, then buy one made by a machine ...not a human.

And you better believe that the price makes a 'difference'. One can't expect a $135 custom piece to look the same as a $1350 custom piece. Usually they are for two entirely different markets anyways ...the $135 piece is a 'user'. The $1350 piece sits on a display shelf somewhere, and probably never cuts a thing other than the packing material it was wrapped in, if that.
 
When I started putting knives in my parent's gun shop, I typed a "use and feeding sheet". It talks about the steel, how to sharpen, and care. It also describes that I am learning knifemaking, so some knives may have cosmetic "beauty marks" that do not interfere with the cutting ability of the knife. My prices also reflect this ($30-$65). I am learning a craft. I need to finance this teaching. No one has complained, yet. Of course, I have given away more than I have sold....
 
Like Bill said, a maker should strive for improvement with every knife he makes. A handmade knife is not going to be "perfect" as far as a machine produced knife may be. Notice I said "may be" I've seen factory made knives with distinct flaws, like uneven plunge lines and grinds. We do not live in a perfect world. I always push for improvement and will never be satisfied.
Scott
 
While I have not dealt with the Chiropractor yet, I can say with certainty that if and when I do I will have no qualms about it as the honesty/integrity is there. That speaks volumes in an industry where, unfortunately, many go out of their way to do just the opposite in the belief that the next dollar is the most important thing in their lives.

While I am not a knife maker, I can say that one should give the ups and downs of any blade, and then let the customer decide. If they understand the knife has extra character they will still appreciate the work when they receive it, and be tempted to become a repeat customer.

For those of you just trying to make another dollar w/o integrity it is a little known secret that much business can be had by way of repeat customers. :rolleyes:
 
I can't speak for anyone but myself, and how I approach knifemaking.
I think that a "handmade/custom" knife should be better made than a production knife, period.
10 years ago the quality of alot of production knives ( not all) tended to be pretty spotty, now in the past few years I think the Benchmade/kershaw/CRTK production lines have improved to the point that a handmade knife cannot afford to have simple errors like uneven grind lines.
B. Buxton, I agree with you 100%---there's no excuse for a poor finish on a handmade knife.
I do think that with the quality of production knives improving, it will push knifemakers to do their absolute best...
 
I have never seen a machine made piece that looked like it was done with the tedious execution of a handmade piece.

Typically the guys at the top of the game use the fact that they do a lot of hand-work to approach perfection.

One main thing that defines that seperation is carefully hand-finished parts... blade, guard, ferrule, handle, pommel, pommel nut...

I'm all for making the most out of this whole notion as possible. :D



-Nick-
 
Chiro-Boy always seems to come up with intriguing, comment-provoking topics, doesn't he? :D

I'll tell you what I think about quality and "The Perfect Knife." You can simply tell when someone has put a lot of effort into making the knife. Anyone can chunk-together a few pieces of steel and other materials to take the shape and form of a knife. True masters have worked years to perfect their craft, and it is evident in everything they touch. Meanwhile, here on Earth, the rest of us strive to emulate those masters and their commitment to quality.

We all make errors in our work, and it all boils down to what we think we can live with. I have a whole drawer full of knives that will never go for sale because I just don't want people to see what I have done to butcher them. I'm not pressured to sell them either. I am also not saying that any knife I sell will never have a defect: They certainly will! But... and the defining "but" here is that I always inform the customer before the sale as to what I consider the defect to be. It's their choice then.

;)
 
"I imagine the price point makes a difference, too. People would expect different things from a $1200 knife than they would a $135 one, I suspect."

I disagree with this statement, but then again we all have our own opinions.
Price shouldn't make any difference in fit/finish, grinds, etc. I perform the same quality of work on my $200 knives as I do my $1200 knives. Its the extra time added to make the knife, because of the more expensive handle materials, guard, spacer and pommel work. The use of more labor involved to produce the steel ( damascus/mosaics). These are what adds to the price, not better fit and finish.
If you approach your knives as being less expensive, meaning they don't need the added commitment when it comes to achieving perfection, then your cheating the customer and in the long run yourself. Always do your best and give the customer more then he or she expects and you will get a good reputation and repeat customers.

Again just my opinion,

Bill
 
I'm not trying to justify sloppy work or anything. I do the best I can and I think people who buy my knives understand that and it's their choice to buy the knife or not buy the knife. I just wondered how much others emphasize/de-emphasize flaws or bothersome things on the knives they sell.
 
Chiro, I know we all have a lot to learn in this profession, and I for 1 learn with every knife I make. Mine aren't perfect, far from it. But to settle and sell a knife that you know could be better with just a little more time and effort is going to hurt you more then help. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but its the people that look at your knives and don't buy because of lack of commitment on your part that will hurt your reputation.

I'm not saying you don't do your best, but if you put a knife out there forsale that has a scratch or 2 that could have been removed with a few more minutes effort, then to me it says lack of commitment. Its not like you didn't know how to remove those scratches. It always kills me when a new maker has to sell his, second, third or fourth knife. This profession is like all professions, it takes time to learn and perfect, if it ever is perfected. I've got a bucket full of imperfections and it keeps getting bigger, but when I look back I'm glad I didn't sell those and I've had people come to my shop and want to know why those 20 damascus blades were in my scrap bucket. In this profession your work speaks volumes, and unless your totally gifted at it, don't rush it. Take your time and learn to do it right.

Bill
 
jiminy said:
Usually they are for two entirely different markets anyways ...the $135 piece is a 'user'. The $1350 piece sits on a display shelf somewhere, and probably never cuts a thing other than the packing material it was wrapped in, if that.
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I do not agree with this statement. Price does not determine if a knife gets used, the buyer does. I know several collectors who use custom knives costing four digits. They say using a high dollar knife gives them a thrill. I also know a sword collector who regularly uses six digit swords. :eek:

jhiggins said:
I have a whole drawer full of knives that will never go for sale because I just don't want people to see what I have done to butcher them. I'm not pressured to sell them either.
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Most makers I know have a reject drawer. It takes big cohones for a knifemaker to put a flawed knife in the drawer instead of selling it at a discount. Is this one trait that separates knifemakers from wanna-be's?

Some makers spend lots of time and money buying back or replacing the first knives they made. They do not want their early knives to be seen and/or affect the value of their current knives.

B . Buxton said:
Price shouldn't make any difference in fit/finish, grinds, etc. I perform the same quality of work on my $200 knives as I do my $1200 knives.
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This is the attitude that turns buyers into long time repeat customers!
 
If your comfortable with the finished product sell it, if your not make it a test knife. Even if someone else says that there is nothing wrong with it and you think there is. You have to be comfortable with what you make and have out there.

Test knives are always a great learning tool as well. I always figure that if my "flawed" knives can hold up to the abuse I put them through, imagine what the "good" ones will do.
 
I agree with bill...and many other with the same in mind

I also
I carry a folder by another maker valued at about $600.00 and have been for about 3 years now.
I've sold 600.00 plus knives, that was fully intended to be used some were and some, Not used but all are useable.

a young maker just starting out asked me about this same thing back a few weeks ago..
and said, well after all that's what custom is right??
he was taking about flaws in workmanship...... NOoooo I said ,,, and I could explain many
differences and why NOT..we have to set ourselves up and out of that mind set if we want to survive our wants in this profession
let me say it again (profession)

like chuck said some don't realize this until they get to a higher point in making..we all would do well to heed that advice if we don't now...

most makers, not all, start to feel good around 50 knives made... this is not to say
knives can't be made at 2 knives but the comfort factor will come after 40- 50 knives made.
and there is a lot to learn by then so keep that open mind..open.

also not everyone will tell you that a makers knife sux or just not up to par..
they'll just move on..I want to know..and I'll be the first to point out problems on my own. there are some things I'll over look on the workers and workers only, chopper that will be choppers and abused but fit and finish,
the HT and to hold up to the task it was made for are utmost..

it's why I rarely make a knife and sheath combo under $250.00 min
some say wow I can make two for that price..
well sure most makers can..but what did they cut to do it. their throats at the least..

you)as in all of us..I'm not targeting any one maker here..
 
I wanted to reword my post above. I didn't mean it to sound like a handmade couldn't be made better then a production. Lord knows there are some ultra fine pieces out there. I meant there's more of a chance for human error when doing something freehand. Of course over time, a makers ability will get better.
Scott
 
Razorback - Knives said:
I wanted to reword my post above. I didn't mean it to sound like a handmade couldn't be made better then a production. Lord knows there are some ultra fine pieces out there. I meant there's more of a chance for human error when doing something freehand. Of course over time, a makers ability will get better.
Scott
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Scott I don't agree
in the factory made knives human hands program the machines and made the machines
and if they screw up then you have thousands of blades possibly out in the hands of buyers or junked..
they have to cut some corners to make money and no way they can make one of a kinds for the prices they get. there's a lot more to it too...

before I was a tool maker I worked as a lathe and mill operator
we made reed surface grinders
the columns had to be hand scraped in for accuratcy. the human hand is most accurate slow but accurate.
 
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