Knockoffs?

Triton

Triton

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2000
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You guys will have to forgive me, I don't come to this particular forum very often so if this has been discussed ad nauseum I missed it. However, here's the question, but first a little background. I get this catalog from a company called cheaper then dirt. It has a lot of nifty stuff in it in the outdoors/survival/tactical/military surplus sort of line. In this catalog there is invariably a section of knives at the price of 3 for 15 dollars. I happened to be looking at these yesterday and couldn't help noticing that some of them appear to be exact knock offs of knives from production companies I've seen. For example there was a knife that looked an awful lot like Cold Steel's scimitar and one that was a dead ringer for their spike. If I knew more about small knives I suspect that I would have recognized a lot more. So, what do you guys think about knock offs. In the sword world (my main area of interest) knock offs are typically poorly made out of substandard materials and may even be dangerous due to poor construction. Is it the same with smaller knives?
 
But no sense in not discussing it again. IMO, the cheap import knives are really junk. I know a guy who runs a guy store, lot's of gadgets and stuff. He carries like two or three Cold Steel Voyagers, and hundreds of low quality imports and knock offs. I look at them pretty often and here is my observations of the made in China line. They are dangerous. A good one would be if the liner actually engages. Many don't. I took one apart, the stop pin was a piece of warped wire, looked like maybe it was once a nail. The knife wouldn't lock half the time. The liners themselves are extremely thin aluminum foil, similar to Reynolds Wrap&reg. They will often slip all the way over the tang and between blade and handle. Due to the shoddy construction, it can close as if unlocked on purpose. Bad news. Not to menion what it does to knife designers, public perception, market prices, and all kinds of stuff I bet. No sense in it. Anyone can cough up enough for a decent knife. I once saw a homeless man with a Benchmade, well not really, but it could happen... BTW, what's wrong with this picture? Other than the awful quality, of course.
pubimage.asp
 
A knockoff is a knockoff; lousy steel (?), poor locking mechanisms, and as the name states a rippoff of someone elses design. I wouldnt wish one of those cheap POS on my worst enemy. -- Charles

Edited to add: Ironman, looks like we were typing at the same time :)
 
"Knock offs are typically poorly made out of substandard materials and may even be dangerous due to poor construction."

Couldn't have said it better.

They're also illegal. They violate the copyrights , patents, and trademarks of American companies. The fact that something is offered for sale in a catalog or store doesn't mean that it's legal, just that the Customs Service didn't catch them. If you buy them, you are buying an illegal product. In theory, Customs can come and confiscate them right out of your drawer because they were illegally imported. (In fact, Customs rarely confiscates from retail buyers, but the stores that sell them should be afraid of this since Customs routinely confiscates illegally imported goods from retailers. The fact that Customs allowed the shipment in doesn't mean that it's legal and now beyond legal action.)

By buying knock offs, you are hurting American makers, designers and manufacturers and helping criminals. It's that simple.
 
Though this topic has been gone over quite a lot lately, I think it is always worth taking another look.

There are those that say that knock-offs do no real harm, because someone buying these knives would not be purchasing the more expensive knives anyway. I have seen knock-offs of knives that can be purchased for $30.00 to $40.00 (some CRKT knock-offs). I think many people would up their budget to $30.00 to get a good knife.

Chuck is correct in his stating that what the companies importing these knives are doing is illegal and harmful to the original designers. People that support these companies by buying their products are also supporting these illegal activities. They are not supporters of the knife industry, in fact, they are just the opposite.

Thee are lots of sub $10.00 knives that are not knock-offs. If you have to purchase a knife in this price bracket due to lack of finances, or even if you buy cheap knives as beaters, get the ones that are stealing the designs of others.

Why would any knife knut purchase knives of poor quality, that use substandard materials, that might even be dangerous to use and that illegally steal the designs of others? Because some of these knives look cool (until they start to fall apart)? That's a pretty poor reason as far as I am concerned.

Though people in the knife community are not the targeted consumers for these knives, we should do everything we can to educate people we know that do buy knock-offs. Show them that for not that much more money they can get good knives. We should all do our part to let the manufacturers, importers/distributors/wholesalers and retailers of these knives know that what they are doing is unacceptable.
 
Yes they are. They are junk too! I get the same catalog also, I esecially enjoy the kabar warthog copy, very cheap!!! (junk, ect.)
 
As I'm walking around the rooms at various gun and knife shows, I see lots of these junky, pieces of feces. Every time I walk by and see this crap, I shake my head and think, "man, how can anybody's conscience allow them to sell this foul garbage!" A lot of times, I will mention something similar to the seller. :barf:
 
Danbo,

Part of the problem is the guys that sell cheap junky knock-off knives don't realize it is a knock-off. Most of the people selling this stuff get their sources from wholesale and flea market magazines (Masters, NFZ, Eagle Imports regularly advertise), catalogs (Bud-K, Dirt Cheap, etc.), Ebay and the internet (there are many more "collectable" knife dealers on the internet than "user" knife dealers). A lot of these dealers have never seen a good knife. Even when they look in mainstream knife magazines, they see ads for Master's Cutlery, Fury, and others. Then there is the HSN Knife Show.:barf: Even at major shows like the Shot Show you will find low-end import companies.

The other reason is this is what the general customer wants. Even the average customer at a gun show seems to want inexpensive. In the last 15 years we have been taught that cheaper is just as good. Generic drugs are just as good as brand names..and a lot cheaper. Walmart brand is just as good as other brands. “Disposable”, “cheaper”, and "why pay retail?" have become the phrases of today's society.:(

The climate of today has also produced a suspicion of knives in general. Knives are no longer considered tools. While this suspicion has grown, so has our fascination of "sharp pointy things". This is what has allowed the "collectable knife and sword" companies to grow into huge companies. Look on Ebay or at your local flea market - the number of "pretty" box knives and fantasy swords are astounding. Did you know that the general population considers United Cutlery to be a high quality company that produces extremely high quality products?.:rolleyes:

While all of this has been going on, mainstream knife manufacturers have been improving their products, using better and better quality steels and handle materials. This has caused prices to increase. In some cases rivaling custom knife prices. Unfortunately the major manufacturers are catering to a surprisingly small niche of the knife market. The general population does not want to pay even $60 for a knife they might use (abuse) a couple of times and lose. (Remember this has become a disposable, throwaway society.)

All of this has created an open market for all of the knock-off companies to thrive. Produce a knife overseas that uses the handle design of one knife and the blade design of another, with inexpensive materials, and you have a recipe for success. Trademark infringement is easy to get around, and tough to enforce. Besides, the major brand manufacturers do it to each other (how many multi-tools are on the market, how many knives with flippers have been introduced with no repercussions from CKRT or Kit Carson, etc). Also you will find that a lot of the knock-off companies will only do a direct copy of a knife with no trademarks or copyrights.

Name brand knife stores seem to be dying out. They are becoming fewer and fewer. Name brand internet knife stores have had to cut their profit margin to the lowest levels just to survive. In the mean time, Ebay has doubled their profits, and convience stores, and discount stores are selling collectable knives in record numbers. With the knock off companies concentrating on the general public, and the name brand companies concentrating on their small niche market, it is easy to see who will capture the market share.

Unfortunately knock-offs are here to stay...Unless the major name brand knife companies start to see a whole market segment they have lost. Some companies have begun to figure it out. Emerson has come out with their HARD WEAR line, Camillus has produced a number of versions of certain knives (EDC comes to mind) using different grades of material, and priced them accordingly. CKRT built their company quite successfully on knives priced for the general population. Perhaps when more name-brand companies start catering to the general population as well as their loyal niche market, the knock-off companies will find their market hold slipping.

Sorry this was so long, but it has been bouncing around in my mind each day as I struggle to uphold my ethics, keep my customers happy, and still manage to make a living doing what I love.

Pam
American Knife Outlet
 
The steel that United Cutlery uses in many of their models are 420J2.The same goes for those copy-cat knives,who imitates their originals. The 420J2 is a soft,low quality steel that is often used as an outer layer for laminated steel,like those from Cold Steel and Fällkniven. The rockwell hardness on these cheap impostors are probably not harder than,at very most,Rockwell 50.

These knives are solid junk! At this low hardness and in overall poor ingrediences,makes these steels suitable only as butter knives or something like that. I feel sorry for the people who buys these knives,and actually thinks that they had done a good deal.They have been fooled. My opinion is that all knife enthusiasts who knows the difference between quality cutlery and cheap poor knock-offs should boycot these knives! I think it needless to say that in a forum like this,but i say that anyway.

Manowar

:)
 
Manowar,

Knife knuts in general do boycott United and companies that use low grade steels. However knife knuts are such a low percentage of the knife buying public, that it just doesn't matter.

I figure less than 1% of my customers would merit the term knife knut, and I have the only mainstream knife store in the area.:eek: If I packed my store with just Emerson, MOD, and Microtech, I would quickly go out of business.

I carry the United brand because 1) my customers want them, and 2)it is still better than a knockoff. If I can start educating my customers 1 step at a time, I stand a better chance of keeping them as customers long enough to be an influence. United is a brand they have heard of (thanks to Gil Hibben and Lord of the Rings). From there it is an easy step to CKRT. If necessary Smith and Wesson makes an acceptible in between step.

When it comes time to introduce the general public to Emersons, I will start with the Hard Wear line and work from there. Remember most of these customers have never handled a good knife and wouldn't know what to look for when they do.

Knife knuts are a very small minority of the knife buying public. BTW I am a knife knut.:D I also am a ethical, realistic, store owner that likes to eat on a regular basis.

Pam
 
I was at a flea market and was in a little knife shop , the guy had way over priced benchmade , crkt ,cold steel etc etc . he also had the cheapies . While i was in there mostly everone was buying and looking at the cheap knives, This one was like so overly wierd :) It looked like a serated blade but they were like stair step serations, I ccould never think it could cut someting, Very cheap and i doubt a knock off , But i seen a lot of people checking out the little junker thing. It cost like 6 bucks. If i ever was in a knife fight with someone i would hope he have the cheap knife. It would probly take off a few of his fingers when the lock fails :) I think the last cheap knife i bought was camp usa knives and i gave them all away after i got them and seen how cheap they were. Oh and when i was like 10 at the flea markets , But i know better these days.
 
Pam, I agree that stores need to have knives that the majority of buyers are looking to buy. Having what you consider to be the best quality $10.00 to $20.00 knives available is a good thing for your store. You need these knives to survive. I do think however that there are enough low priced knives that are not knock-offs that there is no need to sell these knives.
 
Keith,

I agree completely. I do not sell knockoffs. Smith and Wesson, Old Timer, SAK, and a few others can be had for less than $20. However there are quite a few people that want a locking knife for $10 or less. Which means I have to be careful how and who I order from.

I want to sell the best quality for the price I am offering. That means more backlocks than linerlocks in the low-end line. Thank goodness those "pretty" box knives with the deer and patrotic scenes are backlocks.

Unfortunately, "most people" that buy knives today, want a disposable knife. It is an ongoing uphill battle to change that mentality.

Pam
 
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