Kydex thread: armor and other possibilities...

[Jim March]

A bunch of discussion of Kydex armor concepts have popped up on the Community forum mainly because that's where I talked about dumping my bike. I'm going to close those threads there and then put links in to THIS thread, because I suspect a more serious set of craftspeople will see it and contribute.

It's not a censorship thing, it's just something I don't want to see "tucked away in a corner".

So, with that in mind, you can see what's happened by jumping to the two threads there:

<a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000028.html">Click Here, this one's bigger</a>

and

<a href="http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000085.html">Click Here, this one's the gauntlet concept, good stuff</a>

SO: what's needed now is more solid opinions and actual test data on the efficiency of various Kydex grades as armor, especially in defeating machete, knife slash, knife stab and heavy impact attacks. If I'm right, armor "custom fitted" to the forearms and elbows of the wearer would be a major upgrade in comfort and protection, and might be very marketable to bikers, police departments and people into "intense outdoor recreation" such as snowboarders, skaters, god only knows what else. It might be possible to mold knife sheaths right in at the same session; the "custom fitted onsite" nature of this might mean there's little or no competition between any of the existing Kydex craftspeople around the country.

Plus Christian asked "what about Kydex pieces overlapped onto gloves" and I can't see why not. Has anybody tried that?

It's a potentially cool homebrew project(s) and possibly a sideline business for current Kydex foundries.

Jim March

[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 01 February 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 01 February 1999).]

 

[Yekim]

I am curious as to where one might be able to purchase Kydex/Concealex for home project use, along with rivets, clips, fasteners etc. Is it something that my local crafts shop would carry, or would I have to order it up (this is AK).


YeK

 

[KenN]

I'm not a knife/armor craftsman but hope this concept is expanded further, the potential is great.
Pushing to the 'intense recreation crowd' is a smart and logical move. I'm not into the aggressive trick in-line skating, but I'd definitely wear some black Kydex scaled flexible gloves/gauntlets (maybe an attachable combo?) when I skate and with my cold weather wardrobe.
Low-profile under the coat or jacket gauntlets, especially with a slim built-in knife sheath or two(I'm thinking one or two CRK&T Stiff KISSes, like your Meyerchin setup) would be the ticket for me.
Hell, it could easily be fashionable, extreme-wear or something. I once riveted a watchface setup on the back of some half fingered leather gloves(inspired from a movie), I'd love to see the same concept done with Kydex plated gloves.
Just my 2¢. hope to see your results soon.

Ken

 

[amacks]

I know some folks in the SCA who use ABS plastic for armour, I'll ask if any know anything about kydex.
Aaron

------------------
My sheep has seven gall bladders, that makes me King of the Universe!
aaronm@cs.brandeis.edu

 

[Jim March]

OK, some tidbits: Kydex is used in hospitals as wall coverings that are "sterilizable", hence building supply places can score it. Usually beige, but other colors too. That's why I've found three sources in the SF Bay Area that can supply 4ftx8ft sheets.

I even ran into some .125" grade, although .080 and .060 are more common. Mad Dog sheaths are .090", I dunno where he's getting that. I suspect we're mostly interested in .125" and I haven't heard of Concealex that fat.

I've got more inquiries out there. I think Scott Evans of Edgeworks is already out at the SHOT show, dammit...I want him in on this thread, bad.

Jim March

 

[MM]

If you want to go really hi-tech, Dainese sells some motorcycling gloves reenforced with carbon fiber on the back of the hand and over each knuckle. Check 'em out:
http://www.dainese.it/dainese/en/eguanti.html
It might be posible to adapt this style glove to kydex.

------------------

Ciao

MM

[This message has been edited by MM (edited 01 February 1999).]

 

[Alan Folts]

Well as a previous SCA member, armor builder, and fighter, I can say a heck yeah for kydex armor.

We used to use 3/16 and 1/4 thicknesses of kydex to mold leg armor breastplates and throat and neck armor.

The SCA uses a ratan based weapon system, so I dont know anything about how kydex armor would react to a strike with an actual edge..

I do know that when backed with 1/4 inch closed cell foam, it can take a full force baseball bat strike without cracking or distressing much.

The glove plates is a good idea, although the thicker kydex is really hard to het to take a tight curve, so if you are trying to do individual fingers forget about using the thick stuff...

If anybody plans on making some prototypes of this stuff, contact me I might be able to help ya with you designs and building techniques....

Alan Folts..

 

[josh]

What if we take kydex, and apply a tiatanium or steel mesh and layer them.. We'll cover the joints with that

Throw in a kevlar backed ceramic breast plate Greeves and bracers (ceramic hard plate) and we could have some good stuff. Any one want to get together a research team on alternate materials?

What about carbon fiber? Strength vs weight is pretty good, I hear.

I've thought about this too much. I want it to stop bullets.

josh

 

[Jim March]

Carbon Fiber is expensive and tool-intensive to work, I think. Kydex is a "kitchen table" proposition, and having owned various stuff made out of both, Kydex is nowhere NEAR as "brittle".

Bulletproof is...well...not gonna happen in a "hard armor". Not and be street-wearable. Not in a form factor light enough for limb wear, either...best we can hope for is impact/cut resistant.

You know, the single biggest market might end up being motorcycle cops.

Jim March

 

[Alan Folts]

I need to do some experimentation, but you should be able to overlay a layer of cabon fiber cloth and resin over a layer of kydex to stiffen the whole thing up. This whould also let you instal things like nylon pivots, and to cover potential weak points like rivits and conectors.

Carbon fiber cloth, even one layer would make the whole thing a lot more abrasion resistant and add a lot to the integrity of the armor, IMO.

And the carbon fiber cloth is'nt that expensive..

now to see if the resin will desolve the kydex, I have some sky blue that would be good for experimentation...

Alan..

 

[Jim March]

Cool! All experimental data eagerly recieved...but with the exception of the gloves, all the "street armor" we're talking about should be wearable *under* clothes.

The clothes will be the first thing to "abrade" regardless.

I personally feel this "concealed armor" is "tactically superior" - if some clown tries slashing your arm, he should be "taken aback" for a sec when he realizes he's done ZERO damage and you grin and "charge in" under cover of the "arm shield".

Right? And unless I'm mistaken, a "raw kydex armor surface" will "catch" the cutting edge a bit whereas a super-slick surface might allow the guy's edge to "slide along" to where you "run out of armor" at the wrist or whatever?

Or am I being nuts again?

Jim March

 

[KenN]

Just a thought, US cav and shomer-tec catalogs and others I'm sure have those $19-$20 Kevlar sleeves, I don't have any experience with them but thought what a great foundation/base for Kydex plating.
I'll be ordering a pair this week unless someone has had a bad experience with them. If you have, please let me know before I waste the money.

Thanks,
Ken

 

[josh]

oops

[This message has been edited by josh (edited 02 February 1999).]

 

[josh]

Jim

I wasn't thinking concealed armor..

In that case, two layers of kydex with a steel mesh between. Flexible (somewhat), and could probably stop most knife attacks. I was thinking that if we made and undersuit of kydex and some thing, maybe some one could mkae a had balistic armor to go over the top of it..

You know, like a breat plate ove chainmail?

josh

 

[josh]

Jim

I wasn't thinking concealed armor..

In that case, two layers of kydex with a steel mesh between. Flexible (somewhat), and could probably stop most knife attacks. I was thinking that if we made and undersuit of kydex and some thing, maybe some one could mkae a had balistic armor to go over the top of it..

You know, like a breat plate ove chainmail?

josh

 

[Jim March]

Well...Second Chance has proven you *can* do soft armor that's at least knife "repellent", if not proof. Take that stuff, do a modest Kydex segmented layer on top, you'd REALLY have something.

(Sidenote: Second Chance armor is *not* rated with the standard "Threat Level I/Ia/II/IIa/III system...they've been complaining that the standards are a VERY bad joke, and example of bureocracy at it's worst. The argument is laid out on their website *and* it's in the book "Unintended Consequences" by Ross (in full authentic detail); although the company name is altered, the armor company and president of same in the book IS Second Chance - except for the fictional incidents. I know, it's confusing...UC is like that.)

The current problem with tactical arm protection is that true bulletproof soft armor would be too heavy for daily wear by cops. It also wouldn't be very impact resistant. If you go with thinner Kevlar that's *not* rated to stop bullets, you've now got a "worst of both worlds" - you can break your arm falling off a motorcycle or getting hit with a baseball bat, and a knife can defeat it. The only reason to do soft Kevlar arm protection is #1, everyone associates "Kevlar" with armor and #2, being soft, custom fitting isn't an issue.

But Kydex over closed-cell-foam padding will weight less and be FAR more resistent to both impact and cutting/stabbing damage. AND can be the backplate of a knife or even mousegun sheath/holster.

Don't believe me? Check out what modern nylon motorcycle armor looks like an weighs, then compare the strength-vs-weight properties of injection-molded nylon versus .125" Kydex. Once you've got machinery set up the Nylon is FAR cheaper, but the Kydex can be custom fit and hence has at least a theoretical edge. My Nylon-over-foam biker armor weighs only ounces per arm - and proved itself effective in TWO crashes.

Unless you're going to go with Kevlar (or Second Chance's Spectra or other alternatives) doing soft armor on arms/legs is a joke.

My opinion...but...I've got some experience with this stuff!

Jim March

 

[Marlo Brown]

I have a dumb question, Jim:

Why pad the armor? I pad SCA body armor (the exceptions are the head/neck/spine and the joints and hands, those *need* padding!) for two reasons: (1)improve air circulation and (2) protect skin against "bites" from the armor. Armor over ribs, arms, shins, thighs, etc., only received *minimal* padding. I have a lamellar (overlapping plates joined with cord) made of leather that I used to wear over just a sweatshirt. Took full-power rib shots with minimal discomfort. The sweatshirt protected from abrasion, but was not padding. Removing most of the padding from the forearms, shins, etc. might help them fit under street clothes. Closed-cell foam can be bought as backpacking sleep pads (about 1/2" thick) and sliced thinner with a sharp knife, then contact cemented into the backside of the kydex where needed. A layer of t-shirt fabric over the foam before gluing it in might help comfort on bare skin.

[This message has been edited by Marlo Brown (edited 05 February 1999).]

 

[Marcus]

Ask and ye shall recieve.

Egg Armory, specializing in kydex armor. www.creative-net.net/~eggarmor/ Good to hear from the SCAdian contingent,I do some armoring myself and attend an event now and then when time permits. Marlo,it`s good to hear from someone else who fights in leather lamm.,I`m the only person in my shire that does. Mine`s reinforced underneath in strategic locations with plates of T6 6061 aluminum,mostly because regional rules require solid plates in some locations. I agree about the padding,a little goes a LONG way. For those interested SCA armor could be a great place to start looking for "Urban Combat gear" as it`s really meant to be used. A pair of 18ga. steel reinforced leather bracers I have come to mind. They`re comfy and would conceal easily under the sleeves of a jacket. Hmmmm....

Marcus

 

[Marlo Brown]

Marcus:
It's good to hear from others in the armoring world! My lamellar used to qualify as "rigid protection" in some areas, as it's made from 1/4" *MINIMUM* (thicker in some parts) pieces of leather, which of course is overlapped where the lames connect. Really spreads out a blow.

Gauntlet thoughts:
Aluminum might be better than kydex for this. Aluminum "sign metal" can be purchased from cities and highway departments. They take down old signs, and in some places will sell them. Sign metal's somewhat harder than plain aluminum. Its only problem is that it becomes brittle with repeated bendings. With a tight bend like a gandling (finger joint protection), I'd toss any piece I didn't get right on the first try.

The aluminum's pretty easy to cut and work with. I had a pair of mitten-type "clamshell" gauntlets that I wore in Calif. I took many full-force blows right on the hands without even noticing at the time! I'd be able to tell later, as my hands would be a bit stiff. At the same time, I saw other folks breaking their fingers in inferior gauntlets (especially hockey or lacross gloves, which are very bulky yet don't provide good protection for SCA fighting).

I'll dig out an SCA pub with instructions for making a pair of gauntlets with individual fingers and post the contact info tomorrow.

 

[Marlo Brown]

How gauntlets work:
The gauntlets we've been probably discussing won't be as effective for a biker as they are in the SCA. This is because an SCA fighter who gets hit in the hand is almost always holding a sword or pike or ax or other weapon. When you hold a weapon, the individual pieces of the gauntlets touch the haft/hilt and transfer the force of a blow into the weapon. Think about it: a gandling over a knuckle is like an arch. When something smacks the top of the arch, the edges are driven into the spear you're holding, saving your fingers from being squished. If your hand was palm-down on the street and something fell on it (or ran over it), you might be protected, but if you got thrown and put your hand through a windshield, the gauntlet couldn't completely protect your hand.

Still, it beats just a light glove, or even worse, bare hands! I don't think you could conceal gauntlets inside other gloves very well, but they'd look extremely cool if made of black kydex or if painted black (aluminum). Makes me think of all those Elric of Melnibone stories I used to read...

[This message has been edited by Marlo Brown (edited 17 February 1999).]