Lacquer Stabilizing

J

Jim L.

Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
281
Has any one ever tried using lacquer to stabulize their woods?

I'm trying this out for (spalted?) live oak that started to soften (not "punky") and discolor (making a beatiful chocholate fudge swirl ice cream-like effect).

First, the blocks are cut/sanded and placed into a large gallon (pickle) jar. (Done).

Thinned lacquer is then poured over the blocks to cover. The jar is then placed into a double boiler where it is brought up to boil. (Done).

Remove the jar from heat (water) and the lid is screwed down tight; watch serious bubbladge comming from wood (think "Alka-Seltzer) as vacuum seal is formed. (Done).

Wait two weeks and break vacuum seal to allow increased lacquer penetration. (Done).

Wait another two weeks and remove wood from fluid (done) to dry another two weeks. (Pending).

I've tried this with cyprus that was harvested off my property with good results. Am I assuming correctly that this will effectivly remove water from the dampish oak, kill off rot process/organisms and "harden" adequatly? :confused::confused:

Any help/suggestions appreciated. :)

Jim L.
 
Yes, definitely keep us posted. I'm always looking for ways to "beat the system".;)
 
Skilldust, Troop; will do! In fact, send your addies and I'll forward a sample. I'd like to have a second/third opinion. :)

Jim L.
 
Jim, thanks for the offer. We'd all certainly appreciate your assessment first, though...it's your baby.:)
 
I really want to know im just about to go buy a vaccum system for 500 bucks . I have 100 board ft of spalted maple and fiddle back maple ready to treat. Be cool if it works.
 
Have you figured a way to add color too ?
Now that would be kool.
TOLD MY WIFE LAST NITE , I NEED OVER 1000$ JUST TO SEND OFF WOOD TO BE TREATED.( SHE DIDN'T EVEN ANSWER )
WORKING FULL TIME AGAIN AND DON'T HAVE TIME FOR NOTHING. SO IF THIS WORKS IT WILL BE A GODSEND . JERRY
 
skilldust said:
Have you figured a way to add color too ?
Now that would be kool.
TOLD MY WIFE LAST NITE , I NEED OVER 1000$ JUST TO SEND OFF WOOD TO BE TREATED.( SHE DIDN'T EVEN ANSWER )
WORKING FULL TIME AGAIN AND DON'T HAVE TIME FOR NOTHING. SO IF THIS WORKS IT WILL BE A GODSEND . JERRY
Click to expand...

I really hadn't thought about adding color.... I'll bet that if you used a non-oil based dye (I think Rit might be the answer) you could infuse certain amount of color :cool:. The wood I'm using is already colored naturally.

Jim L.
 
I've been reading about this as well (except with Minwax wood hardener). I know the best and most cost-effective way would probably just be buy wood already stabilized, but I kind of want to do it myself. I have some small stumps of hornbeam that I've cut into blocks that have some very nice patterns in them. I'd like my first knife to be something that I built from the ground up. I might buy some mosaic pins, but I'd like everything else to be my own work.

Anyway, keep us posted on how well this works. I've seen good and bad reviews on this process.
 
eminart said:
I've been reading about this as well (except with Minwax wood hardener). I know the best and most cost-effective way would probably just be buy wood already stabilized, but I kind of want to do it myself. I have some small stumps of hornbeam that I've cut into blocks that have some very nice patterns in them. I'd like my first knife to be something that I built from the ground up. I might buy some mosaic pins, but I'd like everything else to be my own work.

Anyway, keep us posted on how well this works. I've seen good and bad reviews on this process.
Click to expand...

I like doing the "ground up" approach myself; something about the huge hands on investment (call it sweat equity).

I'm using lacquer because I had a metric buttload (inherited from a friend that was moving to the west coast). I'll keep the group posted as best I can. Right now, I'm in the "Hurry up and wait" phase.

Jim L.
 
Well, I've tried the first piece (about a week of drying). So far so good :). `Not quite dry..no check/cracking noticed. It didn't gum up the belt on the sander as I was afraid.

The color was still gorgeous with the grain popping out in that chocolate/fudge swirl that I was hoping for. We'll see at about a week more drying. :D

Thank's for following Guys!

Jim L.
 
eminart said:
I've been reading about this as well (except with Minwax wood hardener). I know the best and most cost-effective way would probably just be buy wood already stabilized, but I kind of want to do it myself. I have some small stumps of hornbeam that I've cut into blocks that have some very nice patterns in them. I'd like my first knife to be something that I built from the ground up. I might buy some mosaic pins, but I'd like everything else to be my own work.

Anyway, keep us posted on how well this works. I've seen good and bad reviews on this process.
Click to expand...

I've tried this and it does work. I would say if in a pinch this would be the way to go. However it doesn't turn out as good as professionally stabilized scales IMO.
 
I hope you post your results. I have a lot of lacquer around as part of my business is finshing and refinishing of cabinetry.

My personal experience is that lacquer has minimal to poor water resistance. (Ever see that dreaded ring on the coffee table from a can of beer?) That would seem to kill it for a hunting knife; you can't oil it or clean it without degrading the lacquer . Just about any oil based solvent or lubricant will easily dissolve lacquer.

It has poor abrasion resistance and has no UV resistance. This is why it isn't used outside for exterior applications. Also, I would wonder if the heat applied during your process would compromise the resin structure. It is clearly out of bounds temp wise as far as any manufacturer would want to see if you are getting it hot enough for a strong vacuum.

That isn't to say it won't work here. I really hope report back with your results after you have finished the treatment and after using the knife for a month or two.

I thought the "canning method" of achieving a vacuum was ingenious. :thumbup:

Robert
 
midnight flyer said:
I hope you post your results. I have a lot of lacquer around as part of my business is finshing and refinishing of cabinetry.

My personal experience is that lacquer has minimal to poor water resistance. (Ever see that dreaded ring on the coffee table from a can of beer?) That would seem to kill it for a hunting knife; you can't oil it or clean it without degrading the lacquer . Just about any oil based solvent or lubricant will easily dissolve lacquer.

It has poor abrasion resistance and has no UV resistance. This is why it isn't used outside for exterior applications. Also, I would wonder if the heat applied during your process would compromise the resin structure. It is clearly out of bounds temp wise as far as any manufacturer would want to see if you are getting it hot enough for a strong vacuum.

That isn't to say it won't work here. I really hope report back with your results after you have finished the treatment and after using the knife for a month or two.

I thought the "canning method" of achieving a vacuum was ingenious. :thumbup:

Robert
Click to expand...


Robert, you may be right about not accomplishing much in terms of hardening. MY big concern was about "stabilizing" the deteriorization, and checking/cracking while preserving the grain and removing most of the moisture with in the wood. This I believe has been achieved.

Hardening...This remains to be seen. Oil, UV, and humidity (non/low)resistance, you got me there. To tell the truth, I had planned to seal every thing with a good rubbing of polyurethane a couple/three times. We shall see. I will definitly keep the group posted.

I wish I could lay claim to using the "canning method." I did however think of using a deep fryer to boil the water. The lacquer temp did not get to 212 degs. F.

The boiling point appeared to be lower (I could stick my finger in the lacquer). I had thought to use a thermometer to check the boiling temp, but didn't want to contaminate my only cooking thermometer.

Jim L.
 
Jim L. said:
Robert, you may be right about not accomplishing much in terms of hardening. MY big concern was about "stabilizing" the deteriorization, and checking/cracking while preserving the grain and removing most of the moisture with in the wood. This I believe has been achieved.

Hardening...This remains to be seen. Oil, UV, and humidity (non/low)resistance, you got me there. To tell the truth, I had planned to seal every thing with a good rubbing of polyurethane a couple/three times. We shall see. I will definitly keep the group posted.
Click to expand...

I will certainly be watching for an update on your project! In my business, my peers kind of think of me as Dr. Phibes, experimenting away with new processes and materials.

Just as a thought - a small suggestion - you might profit from my earlier mistakes.

If you are going to top coat with a polyurethane there are a couple of things you can do to help the adhesion. First, if you feel that you have good penetration, sand off all the lacquer that is on the immediate surface of your scales, stopping just before bare wood.

Cut your poly down to a much thinner viscosity, thinning by about 30% or so. I routinely cut high solids poly by as much as 50% when using it as a pad or wipe on finish. Coat every six hours, no sanding in between. Don't worry about the "scuff coats" and all that other business. The poly will bind to itself without the sanding.

Put all your coats on the wood, and don't fool with it for a few days. Most polyurethanes will hit their green strength around 12-14 days (certainly you can easily handle it in less), and then be fully cured out (no more creep or outgassing) at the end of 21 -30, depending on the manufacturer.

That's the process I use with a piece of furniture or cabinets if I am wiping on the top coat. Never had a failure.

I think the poly is a good choice. To help preserve your grain, always use gloss as it won't have any silica flatners in it. If you want the finish to be satin, simply rub the gloss finish with 0000 steel wool after it cures.

Hope you post your results! I sounds like you may be on to something.

Robert
 
Jim, it sounds like Midnight Flyer has worked once or twice with the lacquer and polyurethane. Maybe we should listen to him.;)
 
Jim L. said:
Midnight Flyer, thanks for the advice. BTW how do you thin/cut the poly?

Jim L.
Click to expand...

From above:

If you are going to top coat with a polyurethane there are a couple of things you can do to help the adhesion. First, if you feel that you have good penetration, sand off all the lacquer that is on the immediate surface of your scales, stopping just before bare wood.

Cut your poly down to a much thinner viscosity, thinning by about 30% or so. I routinely cut high solids poly by as much as 50% when using it as a pad or wipe on finish. Coat every six hours, no sanding in between. Don't worry about the "scuff coats" and all that other business. The poly will bind to itself without the sanding.

Put all your coats on the wood, and don't fool with it for a few days. Most polyurethanes will hit their green strength around 12-14 days (certainly you can easily handle it in less), and then be fully cured out (no more creep or outgassing) at the end of 21 -30, depending on the manufacturer.

That's the process I use with a piece of furniture or cabinets if I am wiping on the top coat. Never had a failure.

I think the poly is a good choice. To help preserve your grain, always use gloss as it won't have any silica flatners in it. If you want the finish to be satin, simply rub the gloss finish with 0000 steel wool after it cures.

This is a well tried and true process for top coating. Since I do finishing as part of my cabinetry business, I have tried a lot of different processes over the years. I am constantly looking for something better, but this is the best process so far when using poly (if you aren't spraying!).

I have cut poly by as much as 50% and had no problems with it. If you are going to thin that far, go to a real paint store like Sherwyn Williams, Pittsburgh, etc., and get a high quality thinner. The stuff they sell at the big box stores is mostly crap. I use their stuff to clean my guns and brushes. For thinning, always use the best you can get.

If you are going to pad/rag apply your top coat over your lacquer, you should be able to thin by about 30% and still get a reasonable build with it. It will require multiple coats, but for something this small it shouldn't take but a few seconds to add another coat when it is time. For a project like this, try to get a final thickness of about 2 + mil, which is a little thinner than a dollar bill. At 30% thinned and rage applied, this will probably be in the 4 coat range. When fully cured, it should wear really well.

Robert
 
midnight flyer said:
From above:
<snip>
This is a well tried and true process for top coating. Since I do finishing as part of my cabinetry business, I have tried a lot of different processes over the years. I am constantly looking for something better, but this is the best process so far when using poly (if you aren't spraying!).

I have cut poly by as much as 50% and had no problems with it. If you are going to thin that far, go to a real paint store like Sherwyn Williams, Pittsburgh, etc., and get a high quality thinner. The stuff they sell at the big box stores is mostly crap. I use their stuff to clean my guns and brushes. For thinning, always use the best you can get.

If you are going to pad/rag apply your top coat over your lacquer, you should be able to thin by about 30% and still get a reasonable build with it. It will require multiple coats, but for something this small it shouldn't take but a few seconds to add another coat when it is time. For a project like this, try to get a final thickness of about 2 + mil, which is a little thinner than a dollar bill. At 30% thinned and rage applied, this will probably be in the 4 coat range. When fully cured, it should wear really well.

Robert
Click to expand...


Thanks, Robert.

Jim L.
 
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