Lansky 4 Rod Ceramic Turn Box mixed results

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Jul 3, 2015
Messages
94
Until recently the only sharpening I have done is with a steel or paying someone else to do it. I heard good things about the Lansky 4 Rod Ceramic Turn Box sharpener so I went to Academy and got one. (accidentally got another Kershaw leek too, not sure how it ended up in the cart) anyway 18 bucks is 18 bucks. I have not been getting consistent results. I am sure it's poor execution. I get good results on 154CM 3.5 inch blade at 20 degrees using both the medium and fine grit. s30v 3 inch blade took forever and I finally got it sharp once. I have not been able to get an edge on a 2.5 inch 14cm28 steel blade. I've watched all the videos, I guess for utility knives I need 25 degrees. The one time I got a good edge on s30v at 20 degrees it was dull after cutting up a pizza box into small pieces. Help - Newbie - Please??
 
So I made a video that hopefully shows what I am doing wrong. Can one of you experts take a peek please? I suspect it is something with my angles. Probably just lack of practice, I am a total green horn at sharpening. Thanks!

[video]https://youtu.be/U9eq36_3Yds[/video]
 
The one thing I noticed right off, with all the knives you tried on it, is the apparent pressure exerted, which looks a bit heavy; I'm seeing it in how your hand seems to be gripping the knife, and also hearing it in the sound made against the rods. As 'light' as you might currently think you're going, you need to go lighter in pressure. When I use these V-crock sharpeners, I'm always reminding myself to handle the blade as if I'm just brushing some dust from the surface of the rods, and no heavier. Modifying the hold/grip on the knife can help with this. Instead of wrapping the hand/fingers around the handle, hold the forward end of the handle just between the pad of your thumb on one side, and the side or pad of your index finger on the other side, with placement of each approximately over the blade's pivot on each side. With the ring and pinky finger, place the ends or pads of those fingers snugly against the outside-facing side of the handle, instead of wrapping them around it, to keep the aft end of the handle snugly against the base of your palm (that lends control, to keep the angle steady). The objective in doing all this is to let just the ends of your fingers exert control, which will help you moderate pressure exerted against the rods.

I'm also noticing a slight inward tilt of the blade, toward the center of the 'V' formed by the rods. This might indicate the edge angles are a bit wider than the set angle of the sharpener, if you're tilting the blade inward to find contact with the edge. That's common with a lot of knives.

Your mention of the S30V's edge going 'dull' after cutting some cardboard is a pretty common remark with S30V blades. The steel is often known for holding a coarser 'utility' edge for a long time, but quickly losing a finer shaving edge produced by refined sharpening. That's one aspect that might be creating frustration for you. S30V is a very different animal from many other steels, for that reason. Lansky has a TurnBox kit that includes diamond rods; that would be a better option for S30V's vanadium carbides, as it'll cut them much more cleanly and produce edges that are both crisper and more stable, so there's less tendency for it to 'dull' as much after cutting cardboard and such. With the rods you have now, the ceramics (both the medium and fine) won't be hard enough to abrade the vanadium carbides at the edge (they just get fractured out of it instead), which means the edge will never be quite as thin and fine-cutting as it could be. Any issues with inconsistent angle control or other marginal technique will tend to round off and/or burnish the apex on the ceramics; so 'fixing' all that will become exponentially harder without being able to re-cut a crisp edge, needing diamond to do that.

The 154CM blade looks to have a pretty thin edge grind, and I'm assuming the factory edge angle is also at least within the set limits of the sharpener. Both of those things could be making the difference in making that one easier to sharpen.

The 14C28M blade, I'm betting, probably has a wider edge angle than is comfortable to maintain on the sharpener. That steel, in itself, usually should be pretty easy to sharpen (Sandvik's steel is known for this), but a too-obtuse factory edge angle can make sharpening most any blade frustrating on these devices.

In ALL cases though, I'd first work on reducing the pressure exerted against the rods, as I believe that's the greatest obstacle for you right now. To 'practice' with that, you might use that 154CM blade that you're finding easier to sharpen, and use the hold/grip tips I mentioned above to reduce pressure to EXTREMELY light, to see how that edge responds. All other things being the same, it should get even sharper than you're getting now. Practicing with a good blade edge like that is a good way to discern if your methods or techique are working (by seeing improvement) or not. Go very slow, very carefully looking at how your edge changes after every two or three passes on the rods. If you see it changing in the wrong direction (getting a little duller), STOP what you're doing and re-think what needs to change, to correct it.

BTW, you'll also want to mark the edge bevels with a Sharpie or similar dark-ink marker, and watch how the ink is coming off as you work. If the ink is only coming off the upper portions of the bevels near the shoulders, that indicates the edge angle on the blade may be too wide (obtuse); this is what may necessitate tilting the spine of the blade inwards toward the center of the 'V'. If the ink comes off at the edge itself, that indicates the factory edge grind is at least within the set limits of the sharpener. If you're really lucky, you'll see the ink come off cleanly along the full width of the bevels, indicating 'flush' contact on the rods.

AND, I also noticed the table setup for your sharpener may be a tad too high. It looks like it's making you tilt or lift your shoulder & arm higher than is comfortable, and that'll make it difficult to maintain control of angle and pressure. Lowering the working height for the sharpener, so your elbow is comfortably at your side as you work, should help.


David
 
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The one thing I noticed right off, with all the knives you tried on it, is the apparent pressure exerted, which looks a bit heavy; I'm seeing it in how your hand seems to be gripping the knife, and also hearing it in the sound made against the rods. As 'light' as you might currently think you're going, you need to go lighter in pressure. When I use these V-crock sharpeners, I'm always reminding myself to handle the blade as if I'm just brushing some dust from the surface of the rods, and no heavier. Modifying the hold/grip on the knife can help with this. Instead of wrapping the hand/fingers around the handle, hold the forward end of the handle just between the pad of your thumb on one side, and the side or pad of your index finger on the other side, with placement of each approximately over the blade's pivot on each side. With the ring and pinky finger, place the ends or pads of those fingers snugly against the outside-facing side of the handle, instead of wrapping them around it, to keep the aft end of the handle snugly against the base of your palm (that lends control, to keep the angle steady). The objective in doing all this is to let just the ends of your fingers exert control, which will help you moderate pressure exerted against the rods.

I'm also noticing a slight inward tilt of the blade, toward the center of the 'V' formed by the rods. This might indicate the edge angles are a bit wider than the set angle of the sharpener, if you're tilting the blade inward to find contact with the edge. That's common with a lot of knives.

Your mention of the S30V's edge going 'dull' after cutting some cardboard is a pretty common remark with S30V blades. The steel is often known for holding a coarser 'utility' edge for a long time, but quickly losing a finer shaving edge produced by refined sharpening. That's one aspect that might be creating frustration for you. S30V is a very different animal from many other steels, for that reason. Lansky has a TurnBox kit that includes diamond rods; that would be a better option for S30V's vanadium carbides, as it'll cut them much more cleanly and produce edges that are both crisper and more stable, so there's less tendency for it to 'dull' as much after cutting cardboard and such. With the rods you have now, the ceramics (both the medium and fine) won't be hard enough to abrade the vanadium carbides at the edge (they just get fractured out of it instead), which means the edge will never be quite as thin and fine-cutting as it could be. Any issues with inconsistent angle control or other marginal technique will tend to round off and/or burnish the apex on the ceramics; so 'fixing' all that will become exponentially harder without being able to re-cut a crisp edge, needing diamond to do that.

The 154CM blade looks to have a pretty thin edge grind, and I'm assuming the factory edge angle is also at least within the set limits of the sharpener. Both of those things could be making the difference in making that one easier to sharpen.

The 14C28M blade, I'm betting, probably has a wider edge angle than is comfortable to maintain on the sharpener. That steel, in itself, usually should be pretty easy to sharpen (Sandvik's steel is known for this), but a too-obtuse factory edge angle can make sharpening most any blade frustrating on these devices.

In ALL cases though, I'd first work on reducing the pressure exerted against the rods, as I believe that's the greatest obstacle for you right now. To 'practice' with that, you might use that 154CM blade that you're finding easier to sharpen, and use the hold/grip tips I mentioned above to reduce pressure to EXTREMELY light, to see how that edge responds. All other things being the same, it should get even sharper than you're getting now. Practicing with a good blade edge like that is a good way to discern if your methods or techique are working (by seeing improvement) or not. Go very slow, very carefully looking at how your edge changes after every two or three passes on the rods. If you see it changing in the wrong direction (getting a little duller), STOP what you're doing and re-think what needs to change, to correct it.

BTW, you'll also want to mark the edge bevels with a Sharpie or similar dark-ink marker, and watch how the ink is coming off as you work. If the ink is only coming off the upper portions of the bevels near the shoulders, that indicates the edge angle on the blade may be too wide (obtuse); this is what may necessitate tilting the spine of the blade inwards toward the center of the 'V'. If the ink comes off at the edge itself, that indicates the factory edge grind is at least within the set limits of the sharpener. If you're really lucky, you'll see the ink come off cleanly along the full width of the bevels, indicating 'flush' contact on the rods.

AND, I also noticed the table setup for your sharpener may be a tad too high. It looks like it's making you tilt or lift your shoulder & arm higher than is comfortable, and that'll make it difficult to maintain control of angle and pressure. Lowering the working height for the sharpener, so your elbow is comfortably at your side as you work, should help.


David

Well David you called it. You are an expert! After reading your post the first thing I did was on the S30V blade. I positioned the blade for a pass and moved so I was looking right down the long axis of the entire knife. I was tilting it as I noticed myself when I watched the video myself. I then looked over the left to make sure the blade was perpendicular with the stone. Then I made the stroke. Basically slow down, check the angles, then make a light stroke. All this while sitting in a higher chair which lowered the work area. On all 3 of these utility I will only use the degree holes. So, after about 15 strokes per side. on first the medium then the fine stone, the Kershaw S30V was raror sharp!! You are right about the Pro-Tech with the 154CM, it does have a pretty thin edge grind, you can see it a mile away glinting in the light. I can now consistently get both of these knifes razor sharp, just slow down, check the angles, and use very light pressure. the Sandvic 14CM28M is getting sharp for the most part, the problem is keeping the blade perpendicular to the stone with that curved Kershaw Scallion blade. I start the stroke on the curve and during the stroke try move the handle end lower to keep the blade perpendicular and I am not quite getting it. I think it all boils down to practice, practice. Also Patience and a lighter touch.

I can't thank you enough David for getting me on the right track. You sure know your steel!

Jay
 
Well David you called it. You are an expert! After reading your post the first thing I did was on the S30V blade. I positioned the blade for a pass and moved so I was looking right down the long axis of the entire knife. I was tilting it as I noticed myself when I watched the video myself. I then looked over the left to make sure the blade was perpendicular with the stone. Then I made the stroke. Basically slow down, check the angles, then make a light stroke. All this while sitting in a higher chair which lowered the work area. On all 3 of these utility I will only use the degree holes. So, after about 15 strokes per side. on first the medium then the fine stone, the Kershaw S30V was raror sharp!! You are right about the Pro-Tech with the 154CM, it does have a pretty thin edge grind, you can see it a mile away glinting in the light. I can now consistently get both of these knifes razor sharp, just slow down, check the angles, and use very light pressure. the Sandvic 14CM28M is getting sharp for the most part, the problem is keeping the blade perpendicular to the stone with that curved Kershaw Scallion blade. I start the stroke on the curve and during the stroke try move the handle end lower to keep the blade perpendicular and I am not quite getting it. I think it all boils down to practice, practice. Also Patience and a lighter touch.

I can't thank you enough David for getting me on the right track. You sure know your steel!

Jay

Awesome! Very glad to see it's working out.

Pretty much all the technique issues I mentioned are the same issues I struggled with for a long time, and many others have as well. I think it's a standard part of the learning curve for these tools. You're right, it's basically a matter of practice and getting adjusted to the very light touch needed. Repetition will teach your hands how to do it right, so sticking with it will make the difference eventually. The light touch maintained via the fingertips should also help in finding flush contact of the bevels against the rods, which will also help you with that recurve in the Scallion's edge. Gripping the knife or blade too tightly tends to shut off a lot of the tactile feedback from the contact with the rods, so a light touch is always, always key to sensing when the bevels aren't (or are) making flush contact. You should begin to notice, when the contact is flush, everything will feel a lot smoother; when not flush, either the apex or the shoulder will be 'scraping' on the rod, and you should feel it when it's happening, so you can quickly adjust to it.

Nice work Jay. :thumbup:


David
 
Wow, I now know what you mean by tactile contact, you can feel it when the blade is right on the sweet spot at the perfect angles! How cool. I still have a ways to go on that recurved Scallion but the 154CM and the s30v knifes are SCARY sharp. I think all in all it took about 50 strokes per side on the medium stone and just a few on the fine one.

Next: Make and learn to use a strop. I saw a video that said there used to be these big yellow things called phone books and you could use the corner of one on the spine of the book as a strop, ahh, no. It dulled myr TR-3. It only took a minute to get it sharp again but I have seen some videos that show the proper leather and an easy inexpensive way to make a strop.
 
I kind of cheated on my sharpening training, found a lightly used Edge Pro Apex 1 on Craigslist for $100 and it came with two extra 400 and 1000 Chosera stones! I have been using it for less that 24 hours and everything they say about it is true. On my kitchen knifes I used 18 degrees, started with 220 and moved to 400 grit. They are now sharper than the last sharpening guy I used ever got them. Of course he charged my 20 bucks for 4 knifes and it took all of 10 minutes so I got what I paid for. As a newbie to sharpening I highly recommend this system. I think the apex 1 is all a newbie needs. You don't get the ceramic honing rod, the the 120, 600 and 1000 grit stones, or the blanks and polishing tapes, but I can add those later. For a newb on a learning curve this is perfect. The $165 new is definitely worth it for me. Hopefully I can make some of that back sharpening kitchen knifes for all the housewives here in the neighborhood!
 
The one thing I noticed right off, with all the knives you tried on it, is the apparent pressure exerted, which looks a bit heavy; I'm seeing it in how your hand seems to be gripping the knife, and also hearing it in the sound made against the rods. As 'light' as you might currently think you're going, you need to go lighter in pressure. When I use these V-crock sharpeners, I'm always reminding myself to handle the blade as if I'm just brushing some dust from the surface of the rods, and no heavier. Modifying the hold/grip on the knife can help with this. Instead of wrapping the hand/fingers around the handle, hold the forward end of the handle just between the pad of your thumb on one side, and the side or pad of your index finger on the other side, with placement of each approximately over the blade's pivot on each side. With the ring and pinky finger, place the ends or pads of those fingers snugly against the outside-facing side of the handle, instead of wrapping them around it, to keep the aft end of the handle snugly against the base of your palm (that lends control, to keep the angle steady). The objective in doing all this is to let just the ends of your fingers exert control, which will help you moderate pressure exerted against the rods.

I'm also noticing a slight inward tilt of the blade, toward the center of the 'V' formed by the rods. This might indicate the edge angles are a bit wider than the set angle of the sharpener, if you're tilting the blade inward to find contact with the edge. That's common with a lot of knives.

Your mention of the S30V's edge going 'dull' after cutting some cardboard is a pretty common remark with S30V blades. The steel is often known for holding a coarser 'utility' edge for a long time, but quickly losing a finer shaving edge produced by refined sharpening. That's one aspect that might be creating frustration for you. S30V is a very different animal from many other steels, for that reason. Lansky has a TurnBox kit that includes diamond rods; that would be a better option for S30V's vanadium carbides, as it'll cut them much more cleanly and produce edges that are both crisper and more stable, so there's less tendency for it to 'dull' as much after cutting cardboard and such. With the rods you have now, the ceramics (both the medium and fine) won't be hard enough to abrade the vanadium carbides at the edge (they just get fractured out of it instead), which means the edge will never be quite as thin and fine-cutting as it could be. Any issues with inconsistent angle control or other marginal technique will tend to round off and/or burnish the apex on the ceramics; so 'fixing' all that will become exponentially harder without being able to re-cut a crisp edge, needing diamond to do that.

The 154CM blade looks to have a pretty thin edge grind, and I'm assuming the factory edge angle is also at least within the set limits of the sharpener. Both of those things could be making the difference in making that one easier to sharpen.

The 14C28M blade, I'm betting, probably has a wider edge angle than is comfortable to maintain on the sharpener. That steel, in itself, usually should be pretty easy to sharpen (Sandvik's steel is known for this), but a too-obtuse factory edge angle can make sharpening most any blade frustrating on these devices.

In ALL cases though, I'd first work on reducing the pressure exerted against the rods, as I believe that's the greatest obstacle for you right now. To 'practice' with that, you might use that 154CM blade that you're finding easier to sharpen, and use the hold/grip tips I mentioned above to reduce pressure to EXTREMELY light, to see how that edge responds. All other things being the same, it should get even sharper than you're getting now. Practicing with a good blade edge like that is a good way to discern if your methods or techique are working (by seeing improvement) or not. Go very slow, very carefully looking at how your edge changes after every two or three passes on the rods. If you see it changing in the wrong direction (getting a little duller), STOP what you're doing and re-think what needs to change, to correct it.

BTW, you'll also want to mark the edge bevels with a Sharpie or similar dark-ink marker, and watch how the ink is coming off as you work. If the ink is only coming off the upper portions of the bevels near the shoulders, that indicates the edge angle on the blade may be too wide (obtuse); this is what may necessitate tilting the spine of the blade inwards toward the center of the 'V'. If the ink comes off at the edge itself, that indicates the factory edge grind is at least within the set limits of the sharpener. If you're really lucky, you'll see the ink come off cleanly along the full width of the bevels, indicating 'flush' contact on the rods.

AND, I also noticed the table setup for your sharpener may be a tad too high. It looks like it's making you tilt or lift your shoulder & arm higher than is comfortable, and that'll make it difficult to maintain control of angle and pressure. Lowering the working height for the sharpener, so your elbow is comfortably at your side as you work, should help.


David
David, I don't know if your still on this site but thank you very much! I bought one of these recently and could not get a wicked sharp blade till I read your advice. I was using far to much pressure, not I have gone extremely gently I have a hair cutting knife again, you have saved me from a great deal of frustration and for that I will be eternally grateful.
 
David, I don't know if your still on this site but thank you very much! I bought one of these recently and could not get a wicked sharp blade till I read your advice. I was using far to much pressure, not I have gone extremely gently I have a hair cutting knife again, you have saved me from a great deal of frustration and for that I will be eternally grateful.

You're Very Welcome, and I'm glad you found it helpful. :thumbsup:
 
It’s threads like this, and guys like David that make me happy when I return to this forum from time to time.
There is some real heart and soul here.....
 
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