Large Integral: Transition from plunge to guard

David Schott

David Schott

Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
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Hello,
I am working on my first "bit off more than i could chew" forging project. I started with 1" round W2 and have since hand forged it down to 2"X1/4" and have my profile ready. The blade itself wont be a problem to forge, but I am stuck trying to plan ahead how to transition the bevels into the integral guard. Do integrals traditionally not have a plunge line? A normal plunge just doesnt seem right on this....do you makers tend to grind using a contact wheel until the bevels/plunge flow seamlessly into the integral bolster area?
 
I've only done one integral. I flat ground it, and did the majority of the grinding on my 4X36 grinder. It has a 2" roller on the end, so I was able to hold the blade parallel to the belt and shape the transition with the roller. Gave it a nice radius instead of a sharp transition, and its a lot more refined than if I had tried to free hand it on my 2X72. If you've got a small wheel attachment, that would work too. Just have to hold the blade vertically (watch the tip on the belt:eek: )
 
I was thinking the 2" contact wheel as well, or hand filing with a file. Most that i see have no plunge, and it is washed directly into the transition to the integral. I will go with that!

I never realized how big of a wuss i was until i started hammering out this 1" round stock. At first i was at too low a heat, but now its going nicely...perhaps I should have started simpler for my second forged piece ever....but ive always been a glutton for punishment!
 
When I tried to make a little integral as my second forged blade, J.D. Smith said that I needed a spring hardy to form the junction. Still don't have one...

Wayne Goddard has instructions for making one in The Wonder of Knifemaking.
 
I cant imagine you "need" a spring hardy....after all, the integral plunge is just a huge plungeline....seems it could be filed, ground, or hammered in. I may just grind the junction, but im going to try to keep my forging work as pure as possible and hammer it in....
 
What JD was talking about a spring hardy would pretty well insure that your plunges are even on both sides. No messing arround is this one is deeper than the other.
 
Ah gotcha...they press from both sides evenly....

Could i Mcguyver a makeshift set of dies and use my vice as a press? doubtful...im not that strong....

I'll file em in by hand....
 
TikTock said:
I cant imagine you "need" a spring hardy....after all, the integral plunge is just a huge plungeline....seems it could be filed, ground, or hammered in. I may just grind the junction, but im going to try to keep my forging work as pure as possible and hammer it in....
Click to expand...
Dave, Cheeesel did one with the drawing die on my press.:thumbup: You have a invite for Saturday too.;)
 
Ooooo.... I have two bars of 1" round W2 that i'd love to squish into some big blades to work on hamons with... I would also love to squish up some damascus with ya! Let me see if I can get outta something...I'll get back to ya!
 
Press is good.

The Brazilian Bladesmiths website has a very good tutorial on forging an integral.

John
 
You can make a decent spring fuller out of just about any decent round steel. For tool steel though I recommend not using mild steel if you can avoid it. I've made one out of an old tire iron that worked pretty well. I just squared the socket end to fit my hardie hole, and bent up a spring fuller similar to the one in this tutorial.

Hope that helps!

-d
 
Cool! thanks for the tip. I will have to make one sometime soon. I think ill be heading to George's this weekend so will use the press to rough out a few big blades but going forward i'll need something at home. I ended up grinding the plung in last night on this first blade and it looks pretty good, but id like to do it grinder-free in the future. Im just a newbie to forging so have lots to learn beyond the rudimentary knowledge ive gained off here and watching others at work.
 
David you might want to check out theriversidemachine site and they have an integal grinder for sale now. Gives you an idea or I have seen some where they use a flat plate mounted off the top of their platton and instead of using the top wheel the belt goes over the plate that has a radias edge to grind up to.
 
argel55 said:
David you might want to check out theriversidemachine site and they have an integal grinder for sale now. Gives you an idea or I have seen some where they use a flat plate mounted off the top of their platton and instead of using the top wheel the belt goes over the plate that has a radias edge to grind up to.
Click to expand...

The Riverside grinder looks like it is made from a KMG small wheel attachment. I bet you if you have a KMG or Bader, KMG would custom make or modify that attachment. They did some fairly significant platen attachment mods for Ed Caffrey. John Horrigan also made one for his small wheels setup.
 
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