largest ahndgun caliber for defense

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Stiletto Raggio

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Jan 29, 2000
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I used to think taht using a 44 Mag for self-defense was purely a fantastic proposition, but recently I have been convinced otherwise. A recent article in G&A aobut three guys who specialize with their pistols cites an LEO form my native Indiana who carries a 6" S&W M29 as his sidearm, and can fire and hit quite rapidly. The man is fairly old, around 60, and is not abnormally large. As our own bquinlan testifies, controlling a modern 44 mag with the right recoil reducing measures in place is not very difficult.

So, what is the largest we can use for defense? Is a 44 mag still overkill? 45acp+p? Many would argue that wheelguns are dead (like my Buglarian roommate who believes that anything non-Glock is an artifact) but we are talking defense, not combat here, so more than six rounds is pretty well out of the question in most scenarios.

Let's have at.
 
Stilleto Raggio,

"Around 60" is NOT "fairly old." Its barely broke in. A couple of months ago I had the pleasure of shooting a Desert Eagle .50AE and didn't collapse even once.:D :D

Kidding aside, what is the self-defense situation you are referring to? Home defense? Bronx, NY defense? or what? Might make a difference.
 
I carry a Glock 10mm. With the "right" load, it is something like having a 16 shot .41 magnum!.:).
 
The best to carry is the biggest thing you can shoot accurately.

If I know I'll need it I'd vote for my Marlin Guide Gun with an extra box or two of shells or a 12 guage.

I carry anything from a Keltec P-32 to a Browning Hi-Power when I don't know I'll need a gun.
 
There's a lot of information available concerning the supposed effectiveness of most common pistol calibers. Some of these reports base their opinions on terminal ballistics and gelatin tests, etc., while some others actually attempt to track and document the results of real world LEO shootings.

I haven't reviewed any of these recently, but if memory serves, certain .357 magnum, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP loads have all proven to be extremely effective. I believe a 125 grain .357 magnum JHP load barely edged out the others as the single most effective.

This is not to say there aren't other calibers that are or can be effective. In some cases a particular round (such as the 10mm, for instance) may get overlooked simply because it isn't used that often on the street. But, be advised that there does appear to be an upper limit to those calibers that could be considered reliably effective. In the case of the .44 magnum, for example, there supposedly have been enough defensive uses documented to suggest that its one-shot stop effectiveness lags significantly behind the aforementioned .357 magnum load. Whether this difference is attributed to generally poorer shot placement, or less energy transfer into the intended target, I can't say (trust me when I say I don't ever want to be on the receiving end of either :D).

I guess the bottom line here is that there's a substantial body of evidence to suggest that your run-of-the-mill .40 S&W, .45ACP, or .357 magnum will likely serve you just as well (and perhaps better) in an urban setting as that .475 Linebaugh rhino stopper.
 
Hello all,
I cant remember the exact details of this report (police/pathologist) I once read but what stands out is that the 9mm is totally inadequate as a good killing caliber (Something like 85% + survive single shot wounds)

If memory serves me right the .45 seemed to do most damage over a large number of cases. Again this may be due to better shot placement but given a choice I would go for that little Glock in .45 as an EDC.


Bob
 
As far as stopping power last I read from Marshall and Sanow was 125 grain .357 and 135 grain corbon .40 were equal with 96 per cent one shot stops. I can't remember which .357 it was. Federal Hydra Shok 230 grain .45 with 93 per cent. 115 grain corbon 9mm with 89 per cent. My personal favourite is a 165 grain corbon .45. No figures for it last time I looked but its fast and beautiful to shoot. But figures are just figures. Bullet placement is what counts. Most murders are commited with small calibre handguns. The much laughed at .32ACP has probably done in more folk than any other round. Here in Australia the .22 has done plenty. Carry the gun you shoot well. If you can shoot a .44mag well go for it. If you can shoot a .22 well so be it. Until we changed to the Glock 22 we carried the S&W Model 10 .38cal for years. I never felt under gunned. The reasin we changed was about five years ago two of our guys were killed by a guy with a mini 14 who ambushed them at a domestic. One died first shot fired. The other ran out of ammo and was hunted down. He was only carrying his twelve issue rounds. We changed to the Glock purely because of capacity.
 
I don't think it's the gun or the calibre, I think it's the load. For this topic, I'll stick to the .44 Rem Mag, while it's not my defense handgun calibre of choice. (I keep a SW 4516 loaded with Silver Tips for that; my wife is left handed, and the ambi-safeties work for us.)

I do keep defense ammo for each gun in the house, just in case. I have Nosler Ballistic tips for an AR-15 and a .243 Ruger Ultra-Light.

As to the .44 Rem Mag, I own a SW Magna Classic in 6" barrel, round wooden grips. I load linotype for deer, and Glaser Safety Slugs for defense. I would never chose that gun for a primary weapon.
 
Uncle Bob, Standard Issue is 30 rounds 165 grain .40 Ranger SXT. That is one mag in the gun one on the belt. Regulations do not permit more than this for general issue. SPG (SWAT equivalent), weapons instructors and some other personnel carry extra mags. The reason I believe is a cost issue not a tactical one. They would have to pay for an extra 14,000 mags and ammo. What Government likes spending bucks on its employees?
 
I have a Smith 4" 29 and I like COR-BON .44 special 180gr loads.The box says 1000fps and I ran some over a chrono and I remember it being very close.Bullets recovered from wet phone books were well expanded and I believe they were Hornady's. Recoil seemed mild. The last gun show I went to had some COR-BON but it was 165gr., I think the guy wanted $18.00 for a box of twenty I'm still looking for some at a better price.I also like Fed. hydra-shok for .45s. Patrick
 
I honestly feel that I can handle my Taurus Raging Bull in .44 Magnum better than a lot of folks manage with .38 Specials. The factory porting and specialized grip really get it back on target fast. I keep around some Glasers for it, just in case.

Despite that, I'll take my H&K P7 M8 every time when it comes to defensive use. It is faster to get into action, it is more controllable, and it reloads quicker. I know that a lot of folks are uncomfortable with the relatively low power of 9mm rounds, but I expect to at least double-tap in a combat situation. I can do that quicker with a 9mm than with any of the other defensive-class rounds.

--Bob Q
 
Everybody talks about shot placement, and no doubt, it's important. Too bad that unless you train appropiately and often, you probably lose the ability to place an accurate shot the second the stuff goes down, and your system takes a hit of adrenaline. Ever see the hit/miss ratios for police officers in actual shootouts? Very sobering, especially considering that they are better trained, and far more accustomed to high-stress situations than the average person.
Shot placement is great, but IMO it's most practical to have whatever can do the most damage wherever it happens to hit. To me that spells .357 Mag 125gr. JHPs, .40 and .45 caliber HydraShoks, Gold Dots, Golden Sabres, lighter weight Cor-Bons, high velocity prefragmented stuff like Glaser, MagSafe...
The best defensive loads dump all their energy in the target. It's all about hydrostatic shock. That's why a 135gr .40 S&W JHP+P can "hit harder" than a 240gr .44 mag. One expands, and transfers all of its energy to the target, creating an internal shock wave, and large temporary cavity, while the other penetrates, and punches a hole straight through the target, and continues on it's way.
Manstoppers work best when a man stops them.
 
Has anybody tried the NyTrilium Ammunition from http://www.extremeshockusa.com
Read about them in G&A, seem like good stoppers.
5.jpg

.
 
Thanks no3-..., never saw that ammo before...appreciated...


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
I don't personally care for revolvers when it comes to self defense (i.e. from humans). That puts a burden on me to own highly reliable semi autos.

Originally posted by pyrguy
The best to carry is the biggest thing you can shoot accurately.
Click to expand...

That about sums it up.

For me, that is .45acp +P.

I have a .44mag S&W 629, but it carries a 2X scope and is for hunting when conditions are for sure under 75 yards. It is too much to shoot as quickly as would be needed in a self defense scenario for me personally.

I used to own a ported .357mag and a ported .44mag, and while the ports definitely reduce muzzle rise (but not the straight-back recoil into the hand) and allow you to get back on target much quicker, the ported handguns are terribly hard on your ears when you shoot them without hearing protection... and are even very loud with my custom $700 amplifying, yet noise limiting in-the-ear-like-a-hearing-aid hearing protectors I use when hunting.

10mm is a bit snappier than a .45acp, about the same overall recoil (only feels different, again snappier) than a .45acp +P.

Either of those constitute the most I can shoot quickly and accurately.

Maximum pistol? ... kind of depends on your size. I'm 5'-11" and weigh 180lbs. I've read where guys who are 6'-5" and 280+lbs say they can handle .44mag and upwards to .50 Dessert Eagles and can shoot them quickly and accurately, and I have no reason to believe they can't. For most women, a 9mm is about tops.


Another form of self defense:
If I were to carry a sidearm as a backup for a substantial rifle, for say hunting brown/grizzly/kodiak bears, I'd probably carry an open sighted .44mag S&W 629 with a good trigger job and 300gr pills, semi wadcutter for balance of penetration with some minor expansion, and a speed loader. But eating my own cooking from above, I'd think hard about carrying a .45acp in 230 FMJ in +P and with a spare magazine, since I shoot it better and you really need a head shot w/ a pistol on browns. (and I sure as he1l wouldn't hunt alone).

Bullet selection:
I've read plenty on the fast/light and slow/heavy debate. Don't wish to debate it here. Decide for yourself.

I will say that after pretty much landing on the Marshall/Sanow band wagon years ago, I then leaned back towards the middle somewhat after watching results of fast/light vs. pretty fast & tough bullets on game animals (yeah, they aren't humans, etc...). Fast/light can produce some impressive "lightning" type shots on soft tissue and in the right spots, and can be best in many cases, but can produce some real dramatic failures on bone and on angling/raking shots. But in terms of penetrating bone when it is hit especially at a bit of an odd angle, heavier (and better, a tougher bullet) tends to help a good bit in overall effectiveness. This logic falls into the "where ever it happens to hit" thought process. I think the trend towards expanding but tough bullets is moving from the hunting realms to the pistol/self defense arena.

I will say this:
in the "reasonable for humans" range of calibers, if you can shoot it well, the .45 ACP is much less sensitive to ammo selection than either the .40S&W and the 9mm. With the .45acp, nearly any good quality hollow point (that feeds reliably in your setup) from 165gr to 230gr will generally provide a very balanced level of performance on human targets... expansion plus penetration, soft vs. bone. With the latter two, and especially in 9mm and .38sp, you must really be selective with your ammo choices to ensure you have enough balance of bullet design, energy and momentum. I do have one 9mm pistol left, and settled on 124gr +P+ ammo, but I'd take a heavier bullet (~135gr) if I could get it +P or better and not subsonic (they may exist now, haven't looked since I don't rely on this pistol). At least you can range from 135gr to 180gr w/ the .40S&W. The faster 155gr and 165gr rounds here strike me as a good balance. "Bleeding out the backside hole" is more important than many of the fast/light proponents will admit. Overpenetration isn't "good", but it isn't "bad" either, as exit wounds tend to bleed much more profusely than do entrance wounds (much larger holes), and as the adrenalized heart goes into overdrive, a drop in blood pressure is one prime way to incapacitate (ugly to think through this, but it's an ugly subject). Overpenetration issues tend to be an overweighted variable in many self defense debates. As long as 70-80% of the energy is dumped before exit wound creation, probably fine. IMHO anyway. YMMV.
 
Owen: the average civilian who carries trains more than the average police officer. Generally by a wide margin (I tend to put as many rounds downrange in a month as most police officers would in a year).

One of the biggest problems facing law enforcement is the lack of training of officers.

As far as 'power' goes, personally, if 14 rounds of 9mm hollowpoints won't stop it, I'm gonna start running.

'Energy' is often mis-used. Bullets stop as a result of tissue damage. Hollowpoints have the advantage of expanding as they travel, so they do more damage. In order for the bullet to get to the target, deform (expand), and then to travel a distance through the target, energy is needed. A certain amount is expended fighting air drag on the way to the target. A certain amount is expended deforming the bullet. And a certain amount is expended travelling through the target. Anything over that is excess, and of no use.

Energy does not stop an attacker. The bullet stops him. Energy is only necessary to allow the bullet to do its job.

Energy is 'stored' as two things in a bullet: mass and velocity (kinetic energy = 0.5 * mass * velocity^2). So, in order to have that necessary energy, we need the bullet to have some mas, and some velocity. We could have a heavy, slow-moving bullet, or we could have a light, fast-moving bullet. Either end of the spectrum isn't going to be helpful. So, we need to consider which factors are more important:

In the equation, you can see that velocity is squared. This means it has a much greater role in energy than mass. That might lead to the conclusion that a light, fast bullet would be the most efficient. But we have to consider other factors. And this is where we get into the cloudy 'penetration' issue. See, humans are not made of ballistic gelatin (ie, they have bones and such), and they generally wear clothes. When a bullet travels through clothing or a bone, it loses velocity, but its mass remains constant (unless it is poorly-constructed and breaks apart, but we are only going to talk about quality ammunition). So, we want to hedge our bets a bit, and give our bullet some mass, since we know the mass will survive, but velocity might be degraded by distance, or passing through clothing or bone.

So, we need something in the middle. It must have enough energy to reliably expand, but not so much that it cuts right through the target and keeps travelling a long distance downrange. It must have enough mass to hold it's energy if it hits an obstacle such as clothing or a bone, but not so much that it's energy is made all of mass and of very little velocity (since velocity is important to accuracy, among other things - that is a separate discussion, though). It must have enough velocity to have a lot of energy (since velocity is best at creating energy) and to travel accurately, but not so much that it cannot have much mass.

So, in the end, what do we have? Well, we need something in the middle of the spectrum. Not the super-light, high-velocity round. And not the super-heavy subsonic round. In the end, you must choose the best load for your caliber. For 9mm, I prefer 124gr, loaded to +P pressure. This gives me enough mass not to worry about penetration with heavy clothing (especially a concern up north here, in the winter), and enough velocity to give me the energy needed to ensure that it expands reliably.

9mm works for me, because of a variety of factors:
-It has enough energy to do the job.
-It is widely-available and not too expensive.
-It allows incredibly rapid follow-up shots.
-It has low enough recoil that someone who is not accustomed to shooting could still reliably use my carry gun, if I was injured.
-It is the caliber of the best defensive pistol ever produced: H&K P7M13 (or P7M8 if you have small hands).

The last is probably the most important to me. The best cartridge in the world won't do you any good in a poor-quality gun that is not absolutely reliable.

--JB
 
Originally posted by e_utopia
-It is the caliber of the best defensive pistol ever produced: H&K P7M13 (or P7M8 if you have small hands).
Click to expand...

Amen, brother! :D

I tend to think that there are as many different reasons for picking a "perfect cartidge" as there are shooters. One of the better reasons is finding a handgun that really performs for you. For me, that is the H&K P7 M8.

--Bob Q
 
Stopped by Border's book store for a cappuccino and a peruse through the magazine racks.

Check out the July issue of American Handgunner on page 19. It mentions the 9mm x 19, the .45 ACP and the SW .40 and comments on effectiveness.

It says it doesn't matter, and (oy gevault) the 9mm is probably better.

Boy if this doesn't stir the pot.
 
In the big wide world the 9mm x 19 has probably dropped more folks than any other 20th century calibre and mostly with FMJ ammo. This is just a comment, I would never recommend 9mm FMJ as a street carry. The NYPD made that mistake and ended up having some folks shot after the bullet exited the intended target. The real answer to any bullet/calibre debate is that there is no magic bullet or calibre. The only sure way to stop someone is to stop the brain from passing electrical signals to the rest of the body telling the body to do something. Once the medula is trashed all motor function stops. No reflexes, nothing. It's like pulling the plug. Now just getting that little old piece of lead there is the trick.
 
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