Laser Strike Problem Update

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We received the 16 Laser Strikes back from TOPS after re-work. Sorry to inform everyone that the back strap is still too soft. The test piece that TOPS sent out before re-working these 16 blades worked exceptionally well, but this piece was a raw blade without powder coat. I am thinking that the heat from the powder coat process is causing the back strap to draw back too much. This is just a guess on my part. I don't know anything about powder coating but I did spend 10 years heat treating and machining steel. Anyway, the current status of this project is the plug is being pulled for the time being until this problem can be worked out. We have 12 knives available for sale without the hardened back strap (3 pieces of the remaining 16 have been sent out to various facilities as test pieces to work out the problems and one piece is going to the Army Sapper Course for full testing.) The Army instructors are aware of the problem with true flint and informed us they don't use true flint striking anyway. The design is good and they want to test the knife design and function during their Sapper Course. I realize that we said we were not going to sell any knife unhardened on the back strap, but due to the complications we have made the decision to do this. Our funds for this project are running low and we are selling these knives to fund more Laser Strikes using other sources and different heat treat methods. TOPS may also have a few piece available without the hardened back strap. There is nothing wrong with these knives except they will not strike true flint.

Bottom line is this folks: The knife was designed to work as advertised. The original test pieces did that. Several people have pieces that work including Steven Dick with Tactical Knives magazine who has used his to make flint/steel fires. We have faith in this project and do not intend to give up, however we are looking at optional sources for heat treating. I am projecting this project will be back in full swing within 2-3 months with a few changes. No worry though the design will stay the same.

We apologize but we will eventually get this resolved I'm sure.

Thanks,

Jeff Randall
 
Jeff, are the Laser Strikes still $180.00 plus s/h? And do you have any left handed sheaths in this batch? If so, I may just HAVE to buy one of these "mistakes". As I said in a prevoius post, I don't mind not havng the true flint ability, and I like the fact that the handle is a little softer. I was planning on getting an A.G. Russel StrikeForce folder this month, but I could be persuaded to buy a fixed blade instead. I really like this size of knife, and you have a great design. So please let me know if you have any lefties available, or can get a left handed sheath. Thanks.
 
Sorry amigo...every one I have is right-handed. You might check with TOPS. They may have a couple of lefties.

Jeff
 
Thanks, Jeff, for gettng back to me. I'll try over at TOPs, though I don't hold out too much hope for a left handed sheath. As I said, I was originally planning on getting myself the StrikeForce folder next month, but I saw your postng and decided to splurge and get myself a really good belt knife. I got a BK&T Campanion a few months ago, partly based on your review, as well as other good things I had heard on the 'net. The Campanion is a really nice blade, but I want something a little more special.

If TOPs doesn't have a leftie, I think I'll get myself an M-95 Ranger Puukko, another really nice knife I've been lusting after. I've got a nice cordura sheath that would fit the M-95 nicely.

WHY aren't more knife sheaths made ambidexterous. Not only would it make it easier on us lefties, but it would seem to make logistics easier for manufacturers also. After all, if you don't have to run off a batch of left handed sheaths special, you would end up saving money. And it should be easy to design MOST knife sheaths to be ambi. Just square off the bottom and have a simple belt loop, like the BK&T's come in. Just a gripe from a left handed malcontent.

Good luck with the project, Jeff. It's a great knife with a super design and great manufacturer. Once the "kinks" are worked out, they'll be flying out the door.
 
Just to update everyone:

I just got off the phone after an hour long conversation with Mike Fuller of TOPS. He drove 4 hours one way today to meet with a professor of metallurgy at a college in Boise Idaho - specifically to gain in-sight from an outside source on the Laser Strike project. To make a long story short we believe (between Mike, myself, the professor, and other sources) we have nailed down our problems with the back strap of the knife. It's actually several small problems that are becoming accumulative in the process and softening the spine. Length of time to bring the knives up to the required 1550 degrees is one of the major issues. Soak time after the temp is reached is another. We are testing some knives treated in an electric furnace instead of gas and we are also taking the powder coating process away (on the test knives) since heat is a factor there also. One of the other factors is the final sanding to remove the powder coat on the back strap is generating enough heat to lose a few Rc points at the back strap. Mike is also sending out 4 new prototypes for us to test toughness in comparison to hardness, so we get to break a few knives :) What we're shooting for and feel confident we can achieve is a deeper case while still maintaining a good degree of toughness. This is a specialized process without the latitude of give normally found in typical knife making. We're going to get there. I have full confidence in this. Again I apologize for the delays but both Mike and I are perfectionists when it comes to getting something right. We are still sourcing some of the blades out to another heat treater just to gain insight. We are also going forward with reviews from military units since they are looking for a good survival knife. Once this full scale testing and evaluation is complete the knife will be up to speed. It will be, without doubt, the most heavily tested and scrutinized knife available once we are through, but that will be a benefit to all who buy and use the product. We are, and always will be, our own worst critic. Again, both TOPS and RAT's first concern is, and always will be, the customer. Sure it's embarassing to both TOPS and ourselves to have to say again "well it's still not exactly right," but once we say "it's right" then the public will know that also. Both Mike Fuller and myself agreed from jumpstart (first problems with the knife) to keep the customers and public informed of every problem and process along the way. Thus the reason for so many posts about this project.

As a side note, we have received several emails asking if there was a problem between Mike Fuller and myself. Let me say this clearly THERE IS NO PROBLEM, BUSINESS OR OTHERWISE, BETWEEN US. Mike has probably expended more time and energy into this project than any other he has taken on. We have some problems with the final product but we're going to get there without pissing on each other's shoes. If it meant losing a friend like Mike Fuller just to get this project going, then I would drop the project, and I know Mike feels the same way.....so the saga continues and rest assured we'll keep you up to date :)

Thanks,

Jeff Randall
 
I've been using "Flint and steel" for thirty years or more. That's about two millenia less than the sum total of human experience with the process. For historical reasons "flint and steel" is a relatively recent development in firemaking.

The notion that a steel has to be tempered to within a few degrees of some number is sorta questionable. Take a good look at the old flint lock and check the hardness of the original strikers and you will find RC ratings of 50 to around 62. They all worked.

When I taught those fire making classes for 2 decades and we worked with "flint and steel" I reminded folks that it is really "rock and iron". Any metal, even bronze, will spark with the correct rock.

Despite Jeff's and Mikes problem getting the striker to work with a specific stone, the real question is "will the striker work with any stone". Flint is not always available. Granite is very common. will it work with granite? Yep... the hardness Mike is working with will work with granite. With sedimentary stones... sorry, most steel won't. how about Igneous rock... some, like basalt, will work.

I have a striker made in 1790 (plus or minus) and another made in the mid 1800's and both work well enough with flint, good with fine grain basalt, fair with granite. When an early longhunter was out he carried a few flints but in the field he tried Chert, calcidony and granite. I have a feeling that you guys are working too hard to get a specific stone to strike. The only way to get all stones to strike is to go to RC levels that would be unacceptable in blades. The idea that any blade can strike a spark is unrealistic unless you go searching for a stone that will strike. I hope you will trust me on this as I have a few thousand students who froze through the night because they didn't try optional rocks found in any area.

Ya wanna spark every time? Get a ferrocerium rod and forget blasting you knife. Drill a hold in the handle that will hold a 2X1/8 inch ferrocerium and leave the blade alone.

The knife is very nicely designed as it is. I (and I am speaking only for myself as I have not discussed this with Mike or Jeff) suggest that you just forget about this relatively useless feature and add ferrocerium. If you still want to build a fire with "Flint and steel" come on up to the mountains and get busy with the rocks and tinder found natively. You will be warm... from bashing your knife.

I am only trying to say... don't chase ghosts. The reason we have blue diamond matches is because flint and steel is an anachronism and is a failure more frequently than a success.

IMHO.... I should add

Ron
 
Mike got a college education today on metallurgy and what occurs in carburization and the reasons for flint and steel coming together and making a spark.

Specific steels do have to be tempered to minimum Rockwells for them to work on flint, granite, chert, etc. in a hand strike flint/steel fire starting procedure. Period. If that were not the case then the current Laser Strike ought to work on some other rock? Right? Well, it doesn't.

Mike Fuller had a guru in his shop explaining the process of true flint and steel to him. The guru had a C-steel. Mike asked him the hardness of the C-steel and the guru said it was relatively soft. Mike calls me and tells me this. I tell Mike the guru doesn't know what he's talking about and explained the C-steel is at least 58 Rc. Mike hauls the C-Steel to the Rockwell tester and it checks out at 62.

Bottom line is carburization of carbon steels is a necessary process to produce sparks from consistently *hand striking* a natural stone such as flint. Sure you might travel down the highway at 60 miles an hour and drag it on the asphalt and get sparks but for hand striking flint and steel firemaking it doesn't work. Blacksmiths have been carburizing steel about as long as there has been steel, thats the reason old time flint and steel worked - everytime. Hell, even two rocks slammed together will produce a spark, but consistently producing the spark by hand is another question, not to mention catching a spark. When I teach true flint and steel it works every time...not just some times. My C-Steels will shower sparks about as good as small ferrocerium rods - every time - but they're not as hot...you still need char cloth or charred punk wood. Granite, Chert, Flint, Obsidian, Quartz....it makes no difference on my C-Steels. You are right that you're wasting your time with stones such as sandstone, but the reason is simple.

I will agree that just about any metal will produce a spark but then again I don't want to drag a piece of metal down the road to get the spark. Hand striking is not a difficult process when the combination is right. I want to see the man that makes fire from a natural rock from the ground, a piece of bronze, his two hands, and char cloth. Come to think of it I will be impressed with the man that can consistently make fire with a piece of un-heat treated 1095, 1084, 1070, 01, or other carbon steel and natural stone. Saying that any steel/Rc combo with the right rock will work fine for flint and steel fire making is bullshit. That's about like saying you can catch a spark from true flint and steel in a cotton ball. It doesn't happen.

Ferrocerium is the ultimate way to start a fire in my opinion. That's the reason the ferro rod is enclosed with the Laser Strike, however there's still a few folks that like to practice true flint and steel. True flint and steel to me, and a lot of others, keeps fire building basic and teaches bare bone fundamentals - the same with a bow or hand drill. Once these primitive techniques are practiced it makes fire building with ferrocerium or matches a lot easier. In my opinion it has it's place as a teacher if nothing else.

Jeff
 
Good Academic answer Jeff.... and since I have no interest in trying to convert you... just share my experience, I won't argue with your "Experts". I know what I do and what I've seen and I was sharing it. If it contradicts your experts... sorry about that.

BTW, I have an untreated piece of 1095... a ATAX blank and I drew sparks with fine grain basalt. I could have started a fire with it but didn't really think it worth the effort. BTW I guess the steel is in at around 40RC or thereabouts. I'm sure your experts can tell me what untreated 1095 rolls in at.

As far as "dragging it along a road". No problem. A pitcher throws a baseball at around 100 MPH. I sure as hell can snap a hunk of steel at a speed exceeding that. Flint and steel is pretty much an analog of fire by friction in which WOOD is used to create a temperature equal to the combustion temperature of the material being used.

Oh well... I was just trying to help. I'll let you figure it out. I just use flint and steel I don't try to understand it.

Take care, I was just trying to help.

Ron
 
Well, since a car usually isn't available in the wilderness, the only way I can think of that you could get the speed you need is that you could jump off a cliff and drag your blade down it as you fall. Probably wouldn't need the fire at that point, though...;)

~Brian.
 
Good idea Brian!

Maybe the next design we do would be a small cylinder of pressurized gas, with a small round flint and knurled thumbwheel that strikes the flint as you turn it. We could name it something like BIC or Cricket or some other name similar.

It would be easy to use, and even first timers could get a spark and flame everytime. What do you think of that idea? Sure beats carrying your car in your pocket...don't you think :)

Jeff
 
We can call it the "BIC sacrifice fire starter"...you wait a few days until you're REALLY oily, then, when you hit bottom, you are the soruce of a good bonfire for your companions to enjoy!

If they are low on food, well, an instant barbeque is ready to eat.

Gawd, having flashbacks from watching the movie, "Alive"!

Yeah, cars are a little heavy for the pocket...LOL
:D

~Brian.
 
Actually I enjoy the "discussion" between you guys. I have some experience with flint and steel and I think Ron has a point. Jeff is still experimenting to find out what will consistantly work on his newly designed knife. I love it. I wish that Jeff would make a mini Laserstrike neck knife as those are my favorite and the one most likely to be with me in an emergency.
Oh well just keep us informed on what you discover.
Later
Bill
 
Thanks Bill,

You're exactly right. We are looking for consistency when it comes to flint and steel. C-steels have consistency and to me they're just about as easy to start a fire with than any other method if you have good char cloth, charred cotton batting, or charred punk. I carry char in a mini kit and charred punk and batting will take a spark quickly and you have an ember that burns a long time. In my opinion it is an excellent way of starting fires. If for no other reason, it's a backup source in case matches get wet or lost, lighter quits, ferrocerium rod gets lost, etc. Flint and steel is a real bitch if you don't have the proper combination. Like I said, even two stones thrown together will occasionally make a spark, but catching it in char or consistently making that same spark is another question.

Most things in this world have a process and physics pretty much dictates that process. Understanding and learning, from basic to advanced levels, is the key to continual succes in my opinion. For example, Mike Fuller is an excellent heat treater of knives. He understands the process, but when I decided we were going to add a "twist" to the whole heat treating process we both had to gain more knowledge on how to make it work. We're still testing and we'll get there. Sure we could just throw in the towel and say "Here's the Laser Strike knife. It's a good design but it doesn't throw true flint sparks." People would still buy the knife, but by striving to make it like the original design we're all learning something and adding a unique feature that works. In short we're getting educated as we go, plus learning more about limits of the design. This is a good thing in my opinion. I don't like compromising on anything that is possible. So we lose money and time by not having product. Selling knives is not my first concern - making a product that works as designed is.

Just as an exercise, everyone reading this should try flint and steel. Use different stones, different steels (even try bronze if you wish), and different heat treats (use a file if nothing else to get a feel between various hardnesses) and see what your results are. It's a good exercise in fire building since it teaches from the most basic level.

Regards,

Jeff
 
Jeff, the one thing I noticed, and that Steve Dick commented on, was that it looks awkward to use the back of the handle to strike sparks. I "mimed" the process with one of my knives, and considering the amount of raised metal is so small on the handle back, it would be VERY hard it seems to me. In the TK article, Mr. Dick *did* get sparks, but maybe there's a better, more obvious answer.

Since you have already added the ferro rod, as well as the socket for a bowdrill, why not incorporate a "C" steel in a small pouch on the back of the sheath? This would solve multiple problems. It would make it easier to heat-treat the knives, as well as giving consistent performance with natural flint, and lastly it would give you a striker to use with the ferro rod so that you don't need to dull your blade or carry a piece of hacksaw or something extra to use as a striker. And it would probably be cheaper to have C steels made than to go through a multi-stage process of heat treating. I ealize that this isn't the original concept, but it would be fitting to have one more "add-on" fire making tool in a pouch on the back of the knife. Maybe even have a water-tight container for char cloth, making it a totally "closed" system, a completely integrated fire making kit with every knife.

If the above suggestion is out of line, I apologize, but I was just brain storming, and it seemed like a good idea I might share. As I said, good luck with the project, because I honestly think that your's is the best design of the various "instructor's knives" that have hit the market of late. I'm sure you'll get everything worked out to your satisfaction.
 
Good idea and if the original design does not test out well we may very well back up and punt and go to something like this. I'm not ready to give up just yet. I'm from Alabama and damn stubborn :)

The orginal concept was to kep the knife as a sole means of starting a fire in a survival situation - just in case the ferro rod or everything else was lost. The idea is this: If you only had the knife, then naturally your only way to build a fire would be a bow drill. However, once you made fire you can char punk wood. (simply applying flame to the end of punk and snuffing it out makes good enough char to catch sparks)

This would give you an efficient and quick means of starting subsequent fires should you have to move for rescue, or if your orginal fire goes out.
Bow drill is easier than a hand drill but it's still tougher than flint/steel. Our point is why continue to use a bow drill in a survival situation when there is a better way.

This, of course, is dependent on finding a rock on the ground....which is usually pretty easy to do unless you're in the middle of the low jungle of the Amazon basin. So for actual use we can't be too choosy about the type of rock we use. The orginal test pieces were tested doing just that. We built an initial fire using the bow drill features. Then we charred some punk wood and walked around picking up rocks off the ground and striking them and catching sparks in the char. Actually we found more that would strike than those that wouldn't.

I like your idea though and if we have to change the concept, you can bet that there will be a true flint striking capability to the system.

Thanks,

Jeff
 
I understand your desire to make the concept work as it is a sound notion. I have a Tai Goo Hammer forged blade that has a nice ductile blade but the tang is shaped like a "C" striker and is very hard. I think Tai used 5160. His design would not work on your knife.

Again I am only offering my thoughts... I know you are stubborn ;)

More folks lose their blades in the wilds than lose their sheaths. That is why I always recommend splitting the firemaking burden and part of the reason I dislike hollow handle knives for carrying survival kits. I've probably found a half dozen fixed blade knives in the woods but I've yet to find a sheath. As VShrake said, put some of that stuff in or on the sheath. You can always make a cutting tool from stone if you lose your knife but you can still strike a spark if the fire tool is attached to your belt. With ferrocerium if you find a piece of glass you can strike sparks to get your fire (We demonstrate fire with glass shards in our firemaking video.)

Ron
 
Agree 100 percent. Thats' the reason the ferro rod is attached to the sheath. Not only will glass strike ferrocerium, but just about any hard sharp rock will strike it well also. Most of the time it's easier to find a rock than glass....wait a minute, I take that back....in Alabama there's plenty of beer bottles deposited by the local rednecks along the roadways. :)

Jeff
 
This is actually a great thread, but about hardness and sparks, it all boils down to how fast the flint hits the steel and how much heat is created period! Now I cant take a piece of mild steel and a chunk of flint or our native Chalcedony and make a spark, but I put that same piece of non sparking steel on the grinding wheel and watch the sparks fly!

Fast forward 5 minutes, this thread got me thinking and I just got back from outside and got sparks off a 1/2" mild steel rod with a big chunk of Chalcedony that was a hide scraper a few thousand years ago. It took a full swing and the flint was sharp but I got sparks. I would have never been able to catch it though as it took too much power to get the spark and if I was to aim it at char the scraper would hit the char ans scatter it to hjell and back. Nope, this dont prove nothing exept it will spark...........
 
Hell Rob.. If you, I and Jeff got together over a bottle of JB I bet we could get some sparks!

Ya know Jeff... Maybe if we got together at Aris buger in Iquitos we could have a few beers and slide up on the table for a spark making fun fest. I could see some of the tourists taking a tour next door for a sit down of chicken ala road. :)

What's wrong with rednecks?

Hey! Wait a minute! My Long Island Ice tea is empty... gotta go. Duty calls...

Take care guys

Ron
 
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