Law school! What do y'all know about 'em?

[Trout Tamer]

Howdy, dear members!

A year ago, I returned to school to finish my bachelor's and, since then, have been relatively inactive here at BF. Something about graduating from school and spending time studying compels me to read more than BF in my non-class hours

I'm getting my B.A. in journalism, due to arrive May 2010. As long as I pass all my classes, that is This semester, one class I'm taking is media law, taught by a lawyer-cum-professor. I've enjoyed the class so much I'm investigating going to law school once I finish the B.A. I've spoken with the media law professor who's given me a lot of excellent insight and promised more to come, should I take the plunge and join the ranks of that esteemed profession

In my life, now is a good time to get good 'n educated. I'm finishing my bachelor's since I've recovered sufficiently from a crushed right leg and foot (I've talked about my leg being crushed by an 800-pound boulder in the wilderness survival forum.) I've neither wife, nor children, nor mortagage - no responsibilities to consider before pursuing law school. In my life, now's a good time for it. I'm 31 years old and am motivated to further my education, as opposed to a burned-out 22-year-old who only wants out

So, that ginormous intro brings me to my question (see? I'm gettin' good at this legalese already ) - who here is a lawyer? Where did you go to law school and when? What are some basic considerations I should factor in when choosing a law school? What do you know about how the myriad schools compare with each other?

I've been doing a lot of internet research on different law schools. Of course, I need to be accepted into a school to attend it and, additionally, have the financing to do so. While Ivy-league schools like Cornell or Columbia sound exotic and have good reputations, they may be prohibitively expensive.

So, who here has actual experience in the endeavor I'm attempting?

Just to fill in a few more gaps, law school is a new idea, one that I'd kicked around and tossed aside 15 years ago. Of course, that was how I approached journalism, and it's what I'm getting my undergrad in I've not taken the LSAT; my goal for this summer is to study and p-r-a-c-t-i-c-e for it so I can take it in preparation for fall law school applications. My GPA is 3.5ish; could've been better, but my 20s were interrupted by near-death experiences I'd like to go to an out-of-state school, preferably somewhere with snow. After 31 yaers here in New Mexico, I want a change of scenery. To make that cost-effective, I may defer admittance for a year and work in the school's state, gaining state residency and the accompanying tuition reduction.

Thanks in advance for the feedback, y'all!

 

[cj65]

We will have to see who is brave enough to admit they are a lawyer. I was going to comment my experience with them, but I do not want to hijack your thread. Congratulations, and I pray for your success in your endeavors. School would be the wisest thing you can do.

 

[Trout Tamer]

Thanks, cj65.
You're right, lawyers have a bad reputation in this country, due to the unethical practices and motives of some. On the flip side, as a lawyer, one can work on behalf of justice. That's my hope and goal. Plus, lawyers who see the 2nd Amendment as a personal right are a necessary safeguard for retaining that Constitutional freedom in America.

I've learned in my media law class how true it is that freedoms must be fought for and won by each generation. Here's a modern example -

The 1st Amendment gives us the rights of free speech (now understood as free expression) and a free press. Our national understanding of what speech is and isn't constitutionally protected has evolved during the past centuries.

Forty years ago, a powerful government official was involved in illegal activities. Someone tipped off members of the press, who caught the official's people carrying out the criminal activities. The journalists ran a story in the New York Times. The government official, former president Richard Nixon, claimed national security was being compromised. He asked the Supreme Court to place a gag order on the New York Times releasing any articles or information. The Supreme Court obliged.
Those journalists approached their editor, who was deeply troubled by the turn of events. Working along with Washington Post employees in a basement late at night, they put together a series of articles exposing Nixon's illegal activities.
As we know, the American people were sufficiently outraged and Nixon was forced to resign.
What we fail to see is that the president, aided by the Supreme Court, directly violated and momentarily nullified the 1st Amendment! This was only 40 years ago.
Each generation must contest those who steal away truth and fairness.

 

[cj65]

I like your thought process, and yes, I see the 2nd amendment as a serious subject. I was asked to surrender all weapons via a non prejudicial restraining order filed by my ex wife. It shows me how fragile that amendment is. I never hit/attacked her, in fact it was the opposite, however the judge honored her order, and rendered me gunless for a year. I missed the dove opener because of her. I did not want to defy orders, my kids would have told her I hunted, so I just laid low til it was expired. It can be a noble career, just do not sell your soul along the way to passing the Bar. Once again, best of luck to you, I am confident you will achieve your goals.

 

[Trout Tamer]

Thanks again, cj! I'm going to need all the encouragement possible.

I was reading about different state's firearm and knife laws yesterday, while researching law schools. I see certain issues as accurate barometers of a state's cultural leanings. The right to own and carry firearms is one of those issues.

You were wise to not violate the court's unjunction. It lasted for one year and then expired. If you would've violated it, you could've faced felony prosecution, which would have kept you from ever legally owning a firearm again.

Your patience and endurance in that matter saved you a lifetime of grief and extreme frustration.

 

[Kru03]

I'll admit to being a lawyer. It's a very big decision to make (whether to go to law school or not). You will likely take on a lot of a debt and be surrounded by a lot of douche bags for 3 years. Law students (and lawyers) are insufferable and entirely too impressed with themselves. That being said, I enjoy being a lawyer tremendously. I represent people who need help and don't know how to access the system. Believe me, the legal system is not set up for self-help. It is always satisfying to bring somebody through that system and have them feel like they accomplished something.

There's also a chasm b/w what you would think being a lawyer is and what a lawyer actually is and/or does. A lot of what we do is grinding out work. If you could work w/ a small law firm w/ the type of practice you're interested in that would help a lot. I end up reading a lot and writing a lot and only go to court about twice a month. Working at a small firm will give you more access to a lawyer to get a feel for the day-to-day work.

If you're going to go to law school, you need to commit to it 100%. Go absolutely insane the first year on study b/c those grades are what your first employer will look at (or really your class rank). EVERYBODY will tell you this and you would not believe how true it is. The first year is the only important time in law school. It will dictate whether you earn $200,000 your first year of legal practice or $40,000. Also, if you go, look for a job before the end of your first semester. Nobody else will be looking until AFTER the end of the first semester and by then it's too late. I've got a thousand more pieces of advice so let me know if you do end up going. I'll be happy to fill you in on all of them. My e-mail address is elk at 2klaw dot com.

FWIW, I've been practicing for 10 years and have had my own law firm for the last 3. Good luck w/ whatever direction you take. It requires a lot of consideration.

 

[Gollnick]

I'm getting my B.A. in journalism, due to arrive May 2010.... should I take the plunge and join the ranks of that esteemed profession

Career prospects in Journalism aren't that great right now. For all the knocks it takes, the law is a respectable profession and has good career prospects too.

 

[Trout Tamer]

Kru03 - thank you very much for your reply and insight! I'll definitely take you up on your offer of insight. It's most helpful to know the first year is the crucial year. My law school mission, should I choose to accept it (and I'm 100% certain I am; it's now just a matter of details and provision), is to go all-out on the studying and learning. Since re-entering academia, I've got an entirely different, and much more mature, perspective than when I was first in college.
My media law professor this semester has apprised me on the likely debt I'll incur. His advice if I go out of state is to defer enrollment for a year, work, gain state residency, then go to law school the following year. Assuming the school will accept that, and assuming I don't get a full-tuition scholarship I may just save myself an additional $30,000 of loans and do as my prof advises. Time will tell on that specific aspect.
I'll e-mail you in the next few days, as I've got questions about LSAT prep, applying to schools, and so forth.
Thanks again for your time and willingness to correspond about this!

Gollnick - You're absolutely right, journalism is experiencing upheaval and radical change right now. Newspapers are sinking and technology is changing. That's one of the many reasons I'm considering law school now instead of later.
Having my ear to the ground, I'm hearing that lawyers are having a tough time finding work right now, too. However, I've no idea if this info is accurate. What I do know is journalism is having problems as a career field, not due to decreased readership - news is always happening - but due primarily to corporate investment greed enabled by the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Changing technology and shifting societal priorities are also causing a decline in news consumption.
Those things aside, though, law is looking quite attractive to me and this is the time of life for me to pursue it. Skeevy lawyers haven't tainted my perception of law practice, just as unethical journalists haven't turned me away from journalism.

Thanks, guys, for your feedback! Let's keep it rollin' in.

 

[cj65]

One thing that chaps my hide about family lawyers, is they forget about your issues. I now have probably 200 plus hours in court for my divorce custody issue. My lawyer who got me custody of my boys, forced the sale of the home that she was ransacking and selling drugs out of, and got alimony cancelled, still had opportunities to get my case completely done and wrapped up but choked. I am thankful that I came out ok, bloody but victorious. I could not talk during my session since I am being represented, but I have to constantly remind her, final custody ruling, final custody ruling. The respondent is a nut job and always gets the judge so red faced in frustration, the whole case gets off track and I get no final ruling. So, if you are going to do family law, which I hear is not for the top of the food chain for lawyers, remember to be familiar with the case you are working on. Do not just crack the file the day you go into court. Your client should not know more about what needs to be accomplished than you do. I dropped over 40k fighting for my sanity, my character, my kids and my personal posessions and finances. I am thankful for what I got, do not get me wrong, but if my lawyer would have really dotted her i s and crossed her t s. It would be done and over with, slam dunk about a year ago. Just my ventin' ....sorry

 

[MacHete]

Just a thought on "Ivy League" vs. less-prestigious law schools- My niece and her husband both graduated from the WVU School of Law (She last year and he a year earlier). He wants to teach law, and she wants to practise it. He has pretty much had his pick of teaching jobs, and he accepted one in Texas. She had to take the Texas state bar in order to practise there. (I'm not sure if he had to in order to teach.) She just completed the Texas bar along with about a thousand other lawyers, and she scored the highest out of all of them. The second highest score was by a Harvard Law Grad. Yes, I'm very proud of her, but my point is- there are plenty of GOOD affordable schools out there, but what you take from them is going to depend on what you bring to them, not where they are.

Good luck and study hard! :thumbup:

 

[Gollnick]

... journalism is experiencing upheaval and radical change right now. Newspapers are sinking and technology is changing.

...

Having my ear to the ground, I'm hearing that lawyers are having a tough time finding work right now, too.

....


What I do know is journalism is having problems as a career field, not due to decreased readership - news is always happening - but due primarily to corporate investment greed...

... societal priorities are also causing a decline in news consumption.

Exactly. The legal services industry -- and it is an industry -- is down like all industry is right now in this economy. But, God willing, that will clear up by the time you graduate. The journalism industry is not just down because of the fluctuations in the economy; it's undergoing serious contractions and changes.

You have your journalism degree. You can always go back to it you find you dislike law or if the journalistic industry settles down and becomes attractive again. And with two degrees you will have a unique oppportunity to combine. You can be a journalist who covers the legal industry either for the popular media or for specialty media, or you can be a lawyer who specializes in legal issues surrounding journalism. There's a lot of options there.

So, I think you've made a good choice.

The other thing you have to look at in choosing a career path these days is off-shoring. Some journalism is difficult to off-shore because a reporter in India can't cover a big accident in downtown Portland; they don't make lenses that long. But a lot of media production is moving off-shore and Americans are consuming a lot more foreign-made media including journalism.

Some aspects of the legal profession have moved off-shore already, but it's all clerical work. Lawyers themselves will remain here in America for the foreseeable future.

 

[powernoodle]

I went to law school and graduated in 1991. Even passed the bar exam.

A few random thoughts -

My view is that one's choice of law school is not significant, unless you hope to work for a biggy 800 person firm, or want to clerk for the Supremes. Big firms like pretty resumes to post on their websites. Grades and demonstrated writing skill are much more important when it comes to the job hunt for most legal jobs, IMO.

Mrs. Powernoodle and I each went to state university law schools. She clerked for a federal judge, worked part time at big firm for 10 years, and now runs a non-profit ministry geared toward women in crisis pregnancy situations. I have worked for a state judiciary for 18 years. Becoming a lawyer does not mean that you have to have to practice law in the traditional sense. I don't, nor does Mrs. Powernoodle. But it does place you at the head of the pack in the job race, if you are looking at a job outside the traditional law practice job. For example, if you are applying for a middle management job at XYZ Corp., the fact that you are licensed to practice law will make you stand out from the crowd.

Part of my view that big name schools are overrated is Mrs. Powernoodle's experience at Cornell where she got a masters degree. She found that the actual education is no different than what you receive elsewhere. Its just the name you get on the diploma, which to some people is meaningful and to others isn't.

It is also very helpful in one's daily life to have a law degree, in that it helps you distinguish between The Truth and the hot steaming loads of BS that people feed you on a daily basis. It helps you stay cool when you encounter a cop who is full of horse hockey, because you know The Truth and you know his BS. You're going to search my car? Bite me - no you aren't.

In law school, one even gets to read the Constitution, which surprisingly does not say what the current crop of douchebag politicians and certain interest groups tell us it says. Don't get me started.

And despite the jokes about lawyers and so forth, I've found that 90% of people would crap their pants with joy if their kid got admitted to law school.

So apply to a bunch of schools and see where it leads. It is not so easy to get admitted, but you only have to get lucky once. Cheers.

:thumbup:

 

[Trout Tamer]

Thanks again for the response, y'all!

Powernoodle, your response confirms what I know about general life and suspect about law school - quality education depends on the specific instructor's ability coupled with the student's desire to learn, not on the institution's name. What I have heard concerning well-regarded schools is their name on my diploma gives me greater employment latitude once I (presumably) graduate and pass the bar. Each school also seems to fill niches or have a couple specialities. Ultimately, you hit the nail on the head - I'm going to apply to several (at $50-$80 a pop ) and see what comes through.

MacHete - yep, your niece's and nephew-in-law's experiences substantiate Powernoodle's experience and claim. I do want to go to a good school (as opposed to an inferior school ), but no one institution has a monopoly on education... even though they generally believe they do!

Gollnick, those are good points about outsourcing of American industries (nearly across the board ) and that my (future) degrees in different, complementary, fields may present unique opportunities. I've no idea yet which specific branch of law I want to practice, but I've tossed around the idea of media/1st Amendment law. There are no specified, established fields of "media law" or "speech law"; in fact, the laws concerning some of these penultimately important issues are "like a haystack in a hurricane." (That was a federal judge's description of American privacy law). I'll just have to jump on in and see where my own passions reside. Of course, I have to finish my BA first (a year left before I graduate; I'll be finishing my undergrad with around 160 credit hours )

cj65, I concur - ethics direct that a lawyer should be as familiar as possible with a case and its clients before representing them to a judge. Now, I hear the legal field is one of crushing time constraints, but when court rulings dictate people's lives and a family's life situation and experience, the lawyer representing them has a duty and responsibility to know what the heck the case is about. The lawyer's work will affect children, their parents, their home lives; their entire life. It's an important responsibility which shouldn't be approached flippantly.

 

[bobofish]

One thing that occurs to me about you potentially being a good lawyer is that your journalism study has probably taught you to listen and pay attention to details.

It constantly boggles when I see lawyers not paying attention to details or focusing on the big picture to the exclusion of minutiae. There are a lot of fields in life where "don't sweat the small stuff" works great, but the law is a place where the small details make night and day difference.

 

[Trout Tamer]

One thing that occurs to me about you potentially being a good lawyer is that your journalism study has probably taught you to listen and pay attention to details. QUOTE]
Y'know, that's a good point, and one my media law teacher emphasized this semester - law is a big picture that's comprised of specific details. Change a detail or two, and you've changed the picture and the outcome.

I've always been a detail-oriented person, sometimes to the point of irritating myself Through the years, I'm learning to sort details according to relevance to the larger whole. In both law and journalism, I think that's be a very important skill.