LB-7 Date?

Codger_64

Codger_64

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Here is an interesting LB-7 that just arrived. It is NIB and complete, so makes a good pattern study knife.


As you can see, it is in the White UH Signature gift box. Not shown is the included white shipping sleeve. Note the text in the lower right corner, "BY SCHRADE CUTLERY CORP". This is a clue to dating the box. Both box ends also include this name in gold printing. The text logo - “SCHRADE CUTLERY CORP." was primarily used in 1983 and 1984.

LB-7
SCHRADE+
SCHRADE CUTLERY CORP.
ELLENVILLE, N.Y. 12428

The knife is a three pin, and serialized on the bolster Z62331. This is from the last of the single alpha serials. After Z99999, the alphas doubled, AA00001.
Highest serial recorded so far is BB56630.

The tangstamp is:

Uncle Henry
SCHRADE+
LB7 U.S.A.

Now, the insert papers. The warranty paper is missing, presumably sent in by the original buyer. But the quad-fold leaflet is intact. On the back it has the last "Shop Sign" logo, as I call them.
EST. 1904
SCHRADE
CUTLERY
CORPORATION
MADE IN U.S.A.
This was in use from 1977 - 1982.

Another clue to the date is the knives advertised on the leaflet.
C642 NEW! Third Generation C641
The other knives all predate the introduction of the LB-7. But the Third Generation knives first appeared in the 1983 catalogs.
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/3rd-Gen/pages/1983-3rd-Gen-Catalog.htm
And in 1982 flyers.
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/3rd-Gen/pages/zSC82-40.htm

So...if this is an original complete assembly (and I believe it is), this knife and box date to 1982-1983. Thus, knives with all numeric serials, and knives with lower alpha-numerics are pre-1984-1985. Baer bought Imperial in 1983, and formed Imperial Schrade Corporation. The name officially changed in 1985, and that is the year I first find the "cutler" logo used.

My next quest is to date this box without the SCHRADE CUTLERY CORP on the lower right corner. Pre-1983, or post? Examples. We need examples. We know the gray box appeared circa 1985. And some of them are without the "Sharp Idea" banner. Those two are next in line after the plain white signature box.




Michael
 
Everytime my wife says I'm going overboard.....I just have her read one of Michael's posts and she realizes I'm just gonna get worse :) I will say that thanks to Michael, my learning curve has accelerated well further than I would have on my own. I'd say that I'm at least 3 years ahead of where I would be if it weren't for guys like Michael and the rest of you who've told me "There is no stupid question." I'm indebted to you for the education in passing down your knowledge to an FNG. The key is for me to then pass it down as well.
 
Here is another interesting LB-7. It is pretty pedestrian looking, and comes with no box or papers or sheath (at least none was mentioned, but may be there when it arrives).

The only really remarkable thing about it is it's serial number, #33347. Using production figures we can get a fair estimate of it's year of production.

1977 - 17,693
1978 - 268,071

So serials 0001-17693 were from the 1977 production, the year prior to advertising and catalog appearance. Serials 17694-268071 were produced during 1978, the first full year of production. #33347was probably produced early in the year.

My #0326 was, of course, one of the first thousand produced in 1977 on the then-new Lockback assembly line at Schrade Ellenville.


Both of these have four cover pins and the tangs read:
SCHRADE+
U.S.A. LB7

I don't find the UH signature stamp added until #X29369, a three pin.

Michael
 
Michael,
Do the sheaths also correspond to the dates of production? Is there a chance that maybe with the boxes there were more boxes produced than knives, thus an older box with a newer knife? I assume that maybe the same box was used for different knives of relatively the same size, there may be an overrun of boxes related to knives. Maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't make any difference. Perhaps the sheaths were changed with the boxes.
 
The sheaths are a bit more tricky. They changed more often than the boxes, generally speaking, and there was no real corelation between the advertising/packaging design and orders, and the sheath design/orders. We can gain a bit of insight by looking at the flyer and catalog illustrations, and some dated SFO's. I did some Schrade acessory sheath reasearch some time back which might apply here. See if you can find the post. If not, I'll repost the LB-7 portion tonight when I get home.

Sheaths, almost as bad as boxes and papers, were expendables, not as durable as knives, and often worn out or misplaced. Thus Schrade offered the replacement sheaths. As with the stamps and serials, NIB examples are required to document changes. I have a fair representative sampling of the sheaths, but my scanner is kaput right now. I'll have to glean examples from my photo archives.

I am seeing the white signature boxes used from the earliest days of the pattern thru circa 1984-85. The plainer one without Schrade Cutlery Corp may have been interim before the "Sharp Idea" box of '85.

Yes, I am fairly certain that they used an item until they ran out of it, and if, during a shortage of current design, an old stock batch was found in the warehouse, those were used. Sheath designs also were dependent upon who the current supplier was. They had several over the production span of the LB-7 (1977-2004).

Michael
 
Sheaths and fixed blade knives have always gone together, a stock designed sheath accompanying almost all such knives from the factory. Replacement sheaths, hardly ever illustrated or priced in the catalogs, were generally available from the factory for a nominal fee, sometimes just for the asking. Pocket knives, as the name implies, fit in, and were usually carried in the pocket, negating the need for a sheath. With the advent of “hybrid” knives, the large “folding hunters”, a belt sheath was needed because the weight and bulk generally precluded comfortable pocket carry. One of the earliest examples I can find illustrated is the 225 “Hunter’s and Trapper’s knife”, seen for years (since the early fifties) with no mention of a sheath, then shown in a “3225” gift set with a folded sheath and stone in 1964.

In 1965, the 25OT is shown in a gift box with a folded waffle tooled, laced sheath with stone, and the “3225" set is called a “Safari” set with it’s scenic tooled sheath and stone.

In 1967, the 225 is offered in a “G3225" Gaucho set, the sheath having five rivets, or in the “3225" plain set.

In 1968, the 25OT is noted to include a sheath (not shown), and the 127UH is introduced, illustrated with the scenic tooled folded sheath. The 3225 is still offered with the scenic tooled folded sheath.

In 1969 and ‘70, the 127UH is shown with an included deep drawn stitched sheath, while the 25OT is still listed as sheath included.

In 1971, the 25OT is shown with a deep drawn, round bottom stitched sheath. 127UH simply lists with sheath, but this year, a sheath is shown available separately “Leather sheath for 225"

For 1972, ‘73, the 125OT, 25OT, 227UH, 127UH, and 225 are all listed with sheath, and the “Leather sheath for 225" sheath is still listed as a separate item.

In 1974, ‘75, all (125OT, 225OT, 127UH, 227UH, 225) are listed with sheath, none illustrated or offered separately.

For 1976, 1977, The scrim 260SC is added, and with the 25OT, 125OT, 127UH, 227UH, and 225, is listed with sheath. But... the “#226 sheath for the 225 is listed as a separate available item.

In 1978, the #280 was added to the #226 sheath as an option. Those two remained listed through 1982.

In 1983, Schrade listed quite a few accessory sheaths, eight all told.
SAS10 (#226) for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 (#280) for 4" knives
SAS12 horizontal belt slide for 3 ½" knives
SAS13 horizontal belt slide for 4" knives
SAS14 floral tooled 3 3/4" knives
SAS15 floral tooled 5" knives
SAS16 Black basketweave w/ clip 5" knives
SAS17 folded sheath for fixed blades (152OT, 156OT)

In 1984, the SAS17 was replaced with the SAS19 for the 152OT. Nine sheaths were listed.
SAS10 (#226) for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 (#280) for 4" knives
SAS12 horizontal belt slide for 3 ½" knives
SAS13 horizontal belt slide for 4" knives
SAS14 floral tooled 3 3/4" knives
SAS15 floral tooled 5" knives
SAS16 Black basketweave w/ clip 5" knives
SAS18 Black basketweave w/ loop for 5" knives
SAS19 molded sheath with handle strap for fixed blades (152OT)

In 1985, three more sheaths were added to the list, twelve in all.
SAS10 (#226) for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 (#280) for 4" knives
SAS12 horizontal belt slide for 3 ½" knives
SAS13 horizontal belt slide for 4" knives
SAS14 floral tooled 3 3/4" knives
SAS15 floral tooled 5" knives
SAS16 Black basketweave w/ clip 5" knives
SAS18 Black basketweave w/ loop for 5" knives
SAS19 molded sheath with handle strap for fixed blades (152OT)
SAS20 Molded sheath for 4" knives
SAS21 Molded sheath for 5 1/4" knives
SAS22 Molded beaded sheath for 5 1/4" knives

In 1986 only eight remained.
SAS10 (#226) for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 (#280) for 4" knives
SAS12 horizontal belt slide for 3 ½" knives
SAS13 horizontal belt slide for 4" knives
SAS19 molded sheath with handle strap for fixed blades (152OT)
SAS20 Molded sheath for 4" knives
SAS21 Molded sheath for 5 1/4" knives
SAS22 Molded beaded sheath for 5 1/4" knives

And in 1987 through 1996, just the two.
SAS10 for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 for 4" knives
For 1997 and 1998, two new ones were added.
SAS5 nylon for 3 3/4" knives
SAS10 for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 for 4" knives
SAS20 Molded sheath for 5" knives

In 1999, two tool sheaths were listed.
SAS5 nylon for 3 3/4" knives
SAS10 for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 for 4" knives
SAS20 Molded sheath for 5" knives
ST1L leather for ST1 tool
ST1N nylon for ST1 tool
2000 SAS5 nylon for 3 3/4" knives
SAS10 for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 for 4" knives
SAS20 Molded sheath for 5" knives
SAS21L for ST1 tool
STS21N for ST1 tool
SAS2L for ST2 tool
STS2N for ST2 tool
2001 SAS5 nylon for 3 3/4" knives
SAS10 for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 for 4" knives
SAS20 Molded sheath for 5" knives
SAS21L for ST1 tool
STS21N for ST1 tool
2002 SAS5 nylon for 3 3/4" knives
SAS10 for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 for 4" knives
SAS20 Molded sheath for 5" knives
SAS21L for ST1 tool
STS21N for ST1 tool
2003 SAS5 nylon for 3 3/4" knives
SAS10 for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 for 4" knives
SAS20 Molded sheath for 5" knives
STS21N for ST1 tool
2004 SAS5 nylon for 3 3/4" knives
SAS10 for 5 1/4" knives
SAS11 for 4" knives
SAS20 Molded sheath for 5" knives
STS21N for ST1 tool


This is a late SAS-10. The design change through the years, as did the manufacturers. In the later years, Schrade made some of their own sheaths, and cutting dies for the LB-7 sheath were listed in the last inventory.

Michael
 
Michael,
It is now official....you will have forgotten more about Schrade than I could possibly ever know. Seriously, I'm not sure if anyone has ever thanked you and the rest (LT, Dale, Larry and I'm sure I'm missing many more) for taking the time to pass down the knowledge you all have on Schrades. I know you guys don't get paid to do it which makes it all the more unbelievable that you guys do it. I've always thought you could tell a lot about a man in certain ways. The way he treats his dog, the way he treats people who have no financial bearing on him and the way they do things when they're not getting paid to do it. You guys are as much an American tradition as the knives we collect. Those who pass down knowledge with no gain other than personal satisfaction are a dying breed much like American made knife companies. So, thanks a lot. I hope I never forget to thank you guys.

Back to the LB7's. Were SFO's usually numbered or not numbered? I bought 2 LB7s that are etched with Sportsmen United For Conservation & Preservation, Limited Edition of 500 that were not numbered. Additionally, I bought another one at a hardware store that was not numbered either. The 2 SFOs have the A Sharp Idea Stripe on the boxes and the one from the hardware store does not have the sharp idea stripe. They all have the same sheath ( which is with the guy banging the anvil above Schrade). What made them decide to number some and not the others?
 
The first serialized OT and UH knives were numbered for warranty registration. After quite a few years, it became a problem. LB-7 was a very popular knife. So, not long after the 1984/5 intro of the Sharp Idea box, they dropped the serials and registration. Some SFO knives were serialized. It cost the customer a surcharge per knife. As did the etches. Apparently, it depended on how unique the knife was, and the depth of the customer's pockets. 34 cents on a knife that already cost $16 was a substantial bit (x 500). 34 cents on a knife that cost $56 was relatively inconsequential.

With some Limited editions only the first 500 were to be serialized, though the issue was maybe 1,500 or more.

I don't guess there is a definitive answer that covers all patterns, and all issues and SFOs.

Michael

PS- Scanner is down, so I can't show the progression of SAS-10 sheaths for the LB-7. Here is a archive photo of the early LB-7 sheath. Dark chocolate brown (appears to be black in the photo, but is not), Schrade snap, SCHRADE text stamp 5/16" high on the rounded flap with border line impressed, rounded bottom, 5" belt hanger strap sewn to back.



Michael
 
Michael, Looking at your 0326 knife,I have always believed my 4 pin with the fancy bolster was 021250 it is in fact a D in front albeit a very poor one because it looks like a 0 with just the slightest straight edge however enough unlike your 0 to rouse my suspicion. Were they hand inscribed and if so did Schrade give free spectacles to their employees.? Hoo Roo
 
No, they were alpha-numeric dies. I suspect the earliest ones may have been hand set in a stamping chase (holder), then later a sort of adjustable die like a date stamp was used. Of course, they would have been later done on CNC, I am fairly sure. Let me see if I can find a picture.

EDIT: Nope. But the dies did change, so at least two or three slightly different styles can be seen on LB-7s if you look at enough of them. I don't think they would have used an engraver and pantograph unless it was an emergency. I do find a lot of sellers misreading them. It plays havoc with my research.

Michael

 
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