Learning the Wicked Edge..... HELP

CrimsonTideShooter

CrimsonTideShooter

Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
3,196
I am VERY adept at sharpening.... Free hand, edge pro, etc...


I absolutely cannot figure the WE out. I keep rounding the tip of every knife I try, no matter the technique. Also, I cannot get a sharp edge for the life of me. Sure, the edge is "sharp", but it's not screaming bat shit crazy sharp like I'm used to. It slices paper easily, but damn, I can do that free hand in 1/4 of the time.

PLEASE help me to stop rounding the edges, and please tell me what I'm doing wrong. I bought this system because I figured it would give me sharper edges than anything I've ever seen before.... So far it isn't even close to that.


And yes, I know the fundamentals of sharpening... I am forming a bur and then refining the scratch pattern after that. I know HOW to sharpen, but it just doesn't seem to be happening on this machine.
 
On one of the videos that clay allison has on youtube, he says that the stones have a break in period in which they work better and better. You should watch some of them if you haven't.
 
dflores said:
On one of the videos that clay allison has on youtube, he says that the stones have a break in period in which they work better and better. You should watch some of them if you haven't.
Click to expand...

I've watched all of them... and all the other ones done by random people. I have never had something that I just couldn't do. It's very frustrating. Hell, the first time I tried free handing I got a hair whittling edge.

This is blowing my mind.
 
I don't have any input on this, however, I REALLY enjoy your Youtube channel. Thanks for your hard work putting them together. :)

Erd
 
Im stumped, I've seen your posts and I know your quite knowledgeable. I am an avid WE user and get the sharpest edges I've ever used. I'm gonna throw this out to ya, if your clamping a ffg blade be sure that if the blade is clamped off center you compensate the arms accordingly. Meaning the degree gradiants on the arms are for reference not absolute bevel angles. Also the better the steel the more acute the angle to use. I sharpen my s30v and s90v blades at 15 deg or less ;-) and i swear you could do open heart surgery with them. They get luke skywalker light sabre sharp. Hope this helps.
 
Perhaps you could make a YouTube video of how you are using the WEPS so we could evaluate your technique. I suspect that you are pushing the stones off the point of the blade. I don't round off the points of knives on my WEPS probably because I start the stone at the point and sweep it toward me rather than the opposite. Anyway, I would like to see you using the WEPS and then maybe I can offer suggestions.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
I've watched all of them... and all the other ones done by random people. I have never had something that I just couldn't do. It's very frustrating. Hell, the first time I tried free handing I got a hair whittling edge.

This is blowing my mind.
Click to expand...

I am trying hard to picture all the steps that get me the razor edges that are on all my knives...then I am picturing all the things that I have done wrong in the beginning. So here are a few things and see what you think:
- When you are raising the burr on each side are you sure the scratches are going all the way to the edge of the blade
- When raising the burr use an up and down scrubbing motion instead of the sweeping motion and for the only time in the whole process use a fair amount of pressure.
-make absolutely certain you have a burr on each side by testing carefully...I use a Q-tip dragging along the edge to see if the cotton is snagging on the burr uniformly along the whole sweep of the blade.
-you might want to use a black marker on the initial edge to be sure you are getting all the way up with your scratches and so the burr will be uniform.
-then with the 200 grit paddle begin working the edge with soft, sweeping strokes...I will use the word 'caressing' the edge with the paddles and continue right through with this soft stroking with all the grits.
- be sure to keep the edge free of residue as you go along
-finally be sure to use the strops on your final edge...this is very important in my experience.
And now for a biggy from my experience...use the least low degree setting you can bring yourself to use, especially if the steel in the blade is not a stellar premium steel. I seldom sharpen below 17 degrees per side except for my chef's knife and my knives with 3G powder steel. Once you journey into the lowest degree settings, you run into edges that roll and chip, but then you know that already since you've been around. My sharpest knives are all between 22 and 17 degrees per side and they are laser sharp and they stay sharp and I never have an edge that rolls.
All the above is just some thoughts in an attempt to help. I can't see what else would prevent you from getting the kinds of edges all of us WEPS users rave about. As the King of Siam said, "It is a puzzlement!"
If all else fails call Clay and he will analyze what you do and give you whatever help he can.

Best to you mate :thumbup:
Leo
 
What turned the trick for me was pressure!

It turned out that I was applying way too much pressure to the plates. Just a feather-light touch is what you're after, just barely brush the edge with the plates when you're down in the finishing stages and the edge will develop apace. That's what it turned out to be fore me, anyway.
 
CrimsonTideShooter, I'll keep following this thread closely. We can also talk by phone any time to work through issues.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
I am VERY adept at sharpening.... Free hand, edge pro, etc...


I absolutely cannot figure the WE out. I keep rounding the tip of every knife I try, no matter the technique. Also, I cannot get a sharp edge for the life of me. Sure, the edge is "sharp", but it's not screaming bat shit crazy sharp like I'm used to. It slices paper easily, but damn, I can do that free hand in 1/4 of the time.

PLEASE help me to stop rounding the edges, and please tell me what I'm doing wrong. I bought this system because I figured it would give me sharper edges than anything I've ever seen before.... So far it isn't even close to that.


And yes, I know the fundamentals of sharpening... I am forming a bur and then refining the scratch pattern after that. I know HOW to sharpen, but it just doesn't seem to be happening on this machine.
Click to expand...

Why would it do that? Its just another machine that holds the abrasive at a fixed angle. Sharpness is only what you make of it.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Why would it do that? Its just another machine that holds the abrasive at a fixed angle. Sharpness is only what you make of it.
Click to expand...

Well, because I can get extremely sharp edges despite the variability in my own hands. Take that one variable out and one would assume the results would be better.
 
I seen it as you already had a EP but were expecting better from the WE. Sure it will be better than most freehand edges but that all depends on how good you can freehand :)
 
I agree with what KnifeNut said. IF anyone asks me what I think of the WEPS I tell them the truth (of course) based on my personal experience.
The WEPS is Not the Fast method (that is a belt sander or paper wheel) IF the person is blessed to be getting razor sharp edges with a freehand technique well, God bless them.
The WEPS frustrated me immensely at first too CTS for reasons possibly very close to yours, I had preconceived notions of effortlessly achieving Faster/Better/Sharper - was not the case for me at least at first.... then I cracked the code.
I posted my pics of my first ever whittled human hair.
It was not one thing I started doing or stopped doing that made the magic.
- I started on a Kitchen knife.
- I stayed on 100 grit until it "Bit my thumb". I wanted to rush and I did and I failed. It was not until I STOPPED rushing past 100 that I got a sharp end result.
- For me, the sharpie was key UNTIL I STARTED hearing and feeling the WEPS on my edges.
- I STARTED using lighter strokes, almost rediculously light.
- I STOPPED rolling past the Tip of the blade. As my forward/upward stroke ended it was "Up the tip" NOT past the Tip.
- I RELAXED. Drank a beer and realized, on it's worst day the WEPS is going to perform if the basics get followed.
RELAX, Nobody here is going anywhere. I can't speak for the other guys BUT I went through the same thing.

Right now, Lets go for a WIN. I say do a decent kitchen knife. Lets get a scalpel there and go from there.
 
I think it's definitely a step up in precision from anything else out there. Only downside is the expense, as far as I can tell. Once I got the feel of the paddles down and figured out the correct amount of pressure to apply, I can get a more consistent edge than with my EP pretty much every time, hands-down. Only time I run into issues with the WEPS is on long, thin blades like fillet knives. Even with the support, they just seem to flex too much. Given the tiny number of those I sharpen compared to stiff-bladed hunting, pocket and kitchen knives? Not particularly an issue for me.

Light, light pressure, a sharpie as usual to make sure you're all the way to the edge, and spend plenty of time getting that burr ALL the way off with the strops. I've actually played around a fair bit with using my WEPS and Kalamazoo in concert. I do any major work on the Kalamazoo (tip repairs, big chips, etc) then take it over to the WEPS and run the progression from the 100 plates up through the 1k plates, 5 and 3.5u strops. Then BACK to the Kalamazoo and leather belts with 1u Boron Carbide and .5u Chromium Oxide as a finish step. It takes the nice, clean WEPS edge and makes it even MORE absurd. Technically probably adds a microscopic micro-convex to the edge as well, I'd guess. Can't SEE it, but it has to be there at some level.
 
Whenever you fail always go back to the basics.

Are you completing the apex in the grinding process. During edge formation in the grinding process did you form a burr identifying the apex has been reached? After burr formation did you decrease pressure and remove it with the same stone, and after removal was the edge sharp.

If no to any or all of the above then you should start over. The edge should only get sharper with every stone, if this does not occur then something is not being done right from the very start.
 
So to sum up, and these were the points that made a difference to me and my sharpening:
-realize that the diamonds on new paddles need to break in...the longer you use them, the better they work
-use a Sharpie/black magic marker along the edge so you can see whether your scratches go all the way to the edge uniformly along the whole blade
-burr,burr,burr and burr! No burr, no crazy sharp edge, do not move ahead until you have a clear burr on each side, test it to be sure and don't assume it is there.
- light pressure using the diamond paddles and for that matter the strops
-relax and take your time
-using this rig can be a very Zen experience if you listen to the sounds of the paddles as they work and feel how they are working; in time you start to know exactly when to move on to the next grit and when you are done; stay relaxed

BTW, I agree with Doug, stropping will start a convex shoulder going and if you maintain your edge a lot by stropping, a bevel edge will eventually turn into a convex edge with the bullet shaped geometry loved by so many.

Hope this helps! Lots of good advice in these posts.

Leo :)
 
Don't have the WEPS or the EP. However, with my other guided setups (Lansky, Gatco & Aligner), I've learned to do the following at the tips:

1. Never sweep the hone along the edge towards the tip. Always keep the direction of the stroke directly perpendicular to the edge, when near the tip.
2. Never drag the hone over the edge on the return stroke. Keep the stroke direction one-way only, up and into the edge. Then lift the hone clear for the return.
3. Never allow the hone to overlap the tip by more than 1/2 the hone's width. If it overlaps too far, it makes it very easy to 'tip' the hone ever-so-slightly, which will roll over the tip.
4. Keep pressure extremely light, when working near the tip. Even slightly heavy pressure can cause the tip of the blade to bend/flex away from the hone, which keeps it from ever making flush contact. This is especially true with very thin blades. The bending & flexing might also cause the the tip to 'rebound' back into the hone on the return stroke, which obviously won't do the tip any good.
5. Go very SLOW near the tip, keeping the stroke in complete, smooth control. This minimizes any chance of skipping, bouncing, tipping/rolling the hone, etc.

Hope my 2 cents' worth will help. Good luck.
 
Use an angle cube, sold on Amazon, Clay stated to me at the ECCKS that angle geometry changes on the Wicked Edge, not corresponding to the angle degrees alotted on the Wicked Edge, when using a knife with a thickness over a certain amount. However I can't recall the exact measurement which will change the geomtry. To remedy this he stated use a angle cube. Also larger folders and fixed blades such Khukuri, Survival, Camping, knives need a greater angle. Such as 28 29 degrees recommended by him on a Dwaine Carrillo Tunnel Ratt .25mm in thickness. He will return your e-mails, so ask him. Hope this helped.
 
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Got my first sharp edge last night, although still not nearly as sharp as I can get free hand or with the EP. I know it's something I'm doing, since the machine is tried and true.

Something I noticed, when I'm finished with the edge it looks fine in some spots (normally the middle of the edge), but near the heel and the tip it looks as though some of the stones didn't do their work. Take stropping for example. It appears as though the strops don't do their job near the heel and tip.

Also something else I noticed, even though the edge was sharp - it lacked any bite at all. It would slice paper fine (my absolute bare bottom sharpness test) but it didn't bite my skin at all. Kind of confusing.
 
Your stones are going to need to break in. I'd suggest going to work on some beater knives that you don't mind taking some steel off.
After there broke in you will notice a world of difference. And it just takes some practice like with anything else when it comes to the two
hand scrubbing motion of the arms.
With the 100 and 200 grit stone I use an up and down scrubbing motion to really raise that burr. 400 and up I do mostly sweeping motions from
back to front making sure to try and get a uniform scratch pattern. I finish off at 1000 grit diamond and than move to the 3.5/5 micron strop.

The heel of the knife for me is the hardest part. Trying to get the scratch pattern to match the rest of the blade is difficult because the access
to that part of the blade is limited. One way to make sure you sharpen that part is start with your stone on the heel of the blade and go straight
up. Than when your near the end of the stone start the forward sweeping motion to cover the rest of the blade. It's hard to describe in writing
but hope you can get the gist of it.
 
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