Ive done my research and NYS doesnt really have that strict of knife laws. It can be any size, OC or CC. With the excpetion of NYC and maybe a few other big cities. My problem is I live in a town that is roughly 32,000. After reading the NY laws I thought I was in the clear with my Spyderco Endura until I hear about a municipal law just for my town. I call the Local PD and thet tell me it cant be longer than 3". If I were stopped and frisked, not for any illegal activity such as drugs or an attack, do you think the law would hold up? ive heard that municipal laws can be overturned. Im not a lawyer or anything but I want to know my options. I dont feel carrying a 2.5-3 inch folder is one of them. Suggestions? Thanks.
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Legal Help...
- Thread starter ChrisAHF
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Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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Lets see if we can find the right forum
Chris the law is the law, and after you are arrested I would not try to over turn it then. There needs to be a reason for a search, but that can be pretty selective, and a quick frisk for "officer safety" during questioning is usally upheld in court. I don't think you would fare well to argue that a knife under three inches is not a good enough weapon for you....obey the law for now and perhaps move to a more friendly town later. I bet your Spyderco Endura can be flicked open, and if so it is a gravity knife anyway....
If you can't effectively use a knife with any size blade for defense then you shouldn't be carrying one for defense. This isn't the movies "that's not a knife this is a knife" and bigger isn't always better; and if you are not carrying a knife for personal defense but for utility then you should be fine with carrying something like a leatherman or other multi-tool (and trust me nobody will by a 4" bladed Endura is for work/utility purposes only.)
Sorry if this seems blunt or harsh but in the last couple of days I have had to deal with one too many suburban rambos, (not saying you are one) and am growing and am growing tired of their posturing, false bravado, and eventually having to hear them cry about one thing or another.
Oh, but if you really want a good folder for carry that will not violate any carry laws look into the Spyderco UK Penknife. It may only have a 3" blade but lets face it push comes to shove how much of a difference will 1 little inch less make.
Sorry if this seems blunt or harsh but in the last couple of days I have had to deal with one too many suburban rambos, (not saying you are one) and am growing and am growing tired of their posturing, false bravado, and eventually having to hear them cry about one thing or another.
Oh, but if you really want a good folder for carry that will not violate any carry laws look into the Spyderco UK Penknife. It may only have a 3" blade but lets face it push comes to shove how much of a difference will 1 little inch less make.
Thanks for the replies. I use my knife for utility ocassionally but I always have it on me for SD. Im not some "urban rambo" I just like to have something on me which I can use to protect myself. I doubt a criminal that tries to attack or rob me is going to care if the law is 3" or less. I know im probably just preaching to the choir though. And sorry but I do feel that carry a 2.5 inch folder is inadequate compared to my 4" Sypderco. A weapon is anything that extends your striking reach which means I will be farther away from my attacker. If god forbid I do ever have to protect myself I want the weapon that is going to keep me the safest. And to Tom, ive never heard anyone call a Spyderco Endura a gravity knife but if you have some info to back that up im intersted.
I think what Tom is referring to is that NY law says that any knife that can be "flicked" open and then locks into place has been deemed a gravity knife. While we all know this isn't what a gravity knife is it is unfortunately what the Polassticians have defined it as.
But seriously we're talking an inch inch and a half difference get a ruler out its not that much.
But seriously we're talking an inch inch and a half difference get a ruler out its not that much.
I wouldnt even say that a Spyderco Endura is in the grey area of a gravity knife. Im sure it would be hard for me to find out though becuase im surely not going to show a cop and ask his opinion. And for me to call the PD or DA or whatever and ask them is a "waved" blade a gravity knife they will have no idea what im talking about. I might be intersted if there was a waved 3" blade, or some way to quickly deploy it without getting illegal. But most are very slow to open. IMO having a small blade, that is hard to open, will be useless in an actual SD situation. Not only will you probably never get it out because any confrontation will be withing 5 feet, but I doesnt even really increase your reach. By the way the difference between the two blades is mine is 62% longer.
Chris in NYS any locking folding knife that can be flicked open is considered a gravity knife. In upstate it is not enforced as much, but it is the law on the books. The Buck 110 is one and so is ANY lockable folding knife, even if it can be flicked open by holding the blade and flick the handle to open it. I am a former NYC LEO and have posted a hundred times or more here about this...it sucks but it is the law and there is case law to back it up.
here is the NYS law..... http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/ny.txt
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I really wonder how this will play out. A Federal judge just said that the NY law is in error. (See AKTI) It will be interesting to see how many more of these cases are overturned....
But, I wouldn't want to be a test case. Otherwise a Leatherman Blast or something like a SAK should be safer.
Gadgetman I followed that case fairly closely and the judge entertained testamony on what the knife world considers a gravity knife and he had a rep from Home depot ( the store manager where the knife was bought) who stated the item in question was a folding razor, and that thousands had been sold. The federal judge did not say the knife law in NY was in error ( if only he did), what he found as a matter of law was that the officer was first attemting to enforce the NYC Admin Code on a exposed knife, this lead to a belief by the officer that since the "blade" could be flicked open that it was a gravity knife, which finally led to a search of the person as a course of the arrest which turned up a 25 cal pistol with defaced serial numbers. The pistol was the sole reason for the Federal court to have any jurisdiction in the case. The most serious charge was the federal defacement of a firearm, hence the city in it lust to be able to get funding from the Feds for enforceing a federal law alloweed this to run its course in Federal court. The Federal judge found the reason the officer stopped the person was unwarranted since he was a member of the exempt class at the time he was stopped ( He was traveling home from work and was in constrution and this was a part of his tools even had sheet rock dust on the razor blade). Since the officer made an unlawful stop in the first place all other charges were dismissed by the judge....this is a far cry from stating the NY law was unjust. If any thing the judge confirmed that the NYC Admin code exception that allows exposed carry to and from work was a valid excuse .....I wish it did more but it did not...
I would like to offer some encouragement. I would not used a knife as my primary method of self-defense anyway. Don't get me wrong! I love blades, even big blades. The pride of my collection being the huge Pentagon Elite II and the Applegate-Fairbairn. And my state of Maryland has no length limit on folders.
But here's the thing many people forget: Cuts usually are not felt, and stabbed people don't go down right away. Ever read police reports of stabbings? Lots of times there is an excess of 10 wounds, yet they always seem to run for blocks, or finally expire in the hospital. Now imagine if that person was intent on killing you instead of running away. You'd be hamburger already, then the guy looks down at his chest, and says "Oh, looks like I've been st-" *plop* I don't know for sure, but I think this is why cops don't carry knives for use of force purposes. Too much deadly, not enough stopping power.
Sorry if that comes across as preachy. There's a counter to this too. Showing a blade to scare someone off can be very effective. I've only ever used a knife for SD this way, and it's worked in those situations. But I prefer blunt force to blade for protecting my self any day: Baton, walking stick, flashlight, and my fists. Don't underestimate your own fists either, they can be better than anything considering you've always got them.
But here's the thing many people forget: Cuts usually are not felt, and stabbed people don't go down right away. Ever read police reports of stabbings? Lots of times there is an excess of 10 wounds, yet they always seem to run for blocks, or finally expire in the hospital. Now imagine if that person was intent on killing you instead of running away. You'd be hamburger already, then the guy looks down at his chest, and says "Oh, looks like I've been st-" *plop* I don't know for sure, but I think this is why cops don't carry knives for use of force purposes. Too much deadly, not enough stopping power.
Sorry if that comes across as preachy. There's a counter to this too. Showing a blade to scare someone off can be very effective. I've only ever used a knife for SD this way, and it's worked in those situations. But I prefer blunt force to blade for protecting my self any day: Baton, walking stick, flashlight, and my fists. Don't underestimate your own fists either, they can be better than anything considering you've always got them.
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tom19176,
Maybe you're right. I read the whole opinion in the AKTI newsletter and the judge did state that the knife was a common folding knife. I do understand that this doesn't set a precedence for the overall case but I was just saying that it will be interesting how this plays out. If many more cases are overturned it might open the door to changing the interpetation.
What's really annoying is that the knife industry has stayed silent. It's almost like they hope that if they aren't noticed all of this will go away. Ah, appeasement...never worked, never will....
Maybe you're right. I read the whole opinion in the AKTI newsletter and the judge did state that the knife was a common folding knife. I do understand that this doesn't set a precedence for the overall case but I was just saying that it will be interesting how this plays out. If many more cases are overturned it might open the door to changing the interpetation.
What's really annoying is that the knife industry has stayed silent. It's almost like they hope that if they aren't noticed all of this will go away. Ah, appeasement...never worked, never will....
Gadgetman I agree with you there-- the makers and sellers don't care too much about what their customers have to deal with on the legal front. The wording of the law has been unchanged since it was written in 1958 ( it survived the update from the Penal Code to Penal law). It was clearly meant to ban true gravity knives and for over 25 years that was how the law was applied. The big names in the knife industry turned their backs on their customers who were charged with possession of a gravity knife when the first few cases allowed for this broad concept that any locking folder that could be flicked open was now an illegal weapon. The law that bans possession also bans sale but you can count on one hand how many sellers have been arrested. The Federal Law is worst ( but not enforced), as it calls any flickable knife a switchblade and does not require that it locks. Here is the wording of the Federal law....) The term ''switchblade knife'' means any knife having a blade
which opens automatically -
(1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the
handle of the knife, or
(2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.
Just wait till this gets enforced the way NYC has seen fit to do....
which opens automatically -
(1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the
handle of the knife, or
(2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.
Just wait till this gets enforced the way NYC has seen fit to do....
Being stabbed in the throat can kill a person fast. And your attacker can't keep attacking if he just lost an eye or two. It's gruesome but definitely effective. A knife, or any sharp pointy object, is a very useful weapon if it's used the right way (and this doesn't include slashings or stabbings you see in movies).
A knife is only useless for self-defense if your opponent has a gun.
Im really suprised that any folding knife that locks could be considered a "gravity knife". I read Penal Law 265.00 word for word and it looked like my knife was prefectly legal by their terms but I guess not. Also can someone define "flick" in terms of the law? Tom, do you have any links to the case laws, I would be very interested in reading some. Its seems a little farfetched that any folding knife is illegal in NYS. If so I need to get out soon.
As a side note I would carry a pistol if it was legal for me. Im not 21 yet and the wait is almost painful. But I would agree with auspx that a knife is most certainly a good SD tool assuming your not up against a pistol. If you know where to stike it can be very effective. Problem is if you pull your knife to defend yourself from a criminal they could easily have a pistol. So for right now Im making due with what I have.
As a side note I would carry a pistol if it was legal for me. Im not 21 yet and the wait is almost painful. But I would agree with auspx that a knife is most certainly a good SD tool assuming your not up against a pistol. If you know where to stike it can be very effective. Problem is if you pull your knife to defend yourself from a criminal they could easily have a pistol. So for right now Im making due with what I have.
-Holding the knife by the handle and flipping the blade open.
-Holding the knife by the blade (thumbhole/thumbstud) and flipping the handle open.
Most Spyderco knives can be opened this way but what's truly criminal is that New York State and NYC stores still sell them. The customers think they are buying a legal knife when in fact they are not.
Personally I carry a Victorinox Alpineer. It can't be flicked open in any way, it has a nice 3" blade, it locks, and it doesn't look very much like a dangerous knife.
Chris
1. If you are under 21 how old are you?
2. How much experience/training do you have with knife fighting/SD usage?
3. If you want fast deployment of a knife why not go fixed blade? As far as I know concealed fixed blade carry is legal in NY even NYC. Something like a RAT3 would do you good for that.
4. If you Truly want fast deployment and even better range that a 4" blade get yourself a good can of OC!
1. If you are under 21 how old are you?
2. How much experience/training do you have with knife fighting/SD usage?
3. If you want fast deployment of a knife why not go fixed blade? As far as I know concealed fixed blade carry is legal in NY even NYC. Something like a RAT3 would do you good for that.
4. If you Truly want fast deployment and even better range that a 4" blade get yourself a good can of OC!
Im really suprised that practically all folding knives are illegal in NYS. To auspx, I looked at that knife and although it meets the criteria, and doesnt look like a "scary" knife, I dont think it would be of any use in a CQ situation. Do you carry anything else besides that one knife? To Bare Rib, i am 19 years old. For training I have a couple instructional videos, and am trying to find a place in my area that does knife fighting. I am assuming that if a your folder cant be longer than 3" neither can your fixed blade ( For my town at least). Altough I do like the RAT3, it is 1/4 of an inch too long. Ridiclous but I bet the PD would pull out a ruler. I have a can of OC but I feel at best its going to make them mad or stop them for a second. If I plan on defending myself its going to be because I have no where else to go. A can of OC when your cornered isnt of much use IMO. It seems everyday I find a new reason to get out of NY.
Went down to City Hall today and found this on their site of Municipal laws.
§ 234-4. Firearms and other weapons. A. Discharge of firearms, air guns or spring guns. No person shall discharge any firearm, air gun, spring gun, slingshot, crossbow or other similar instrument or weapon within the City except in self-defense or in the discharge of official duty or during a memorial service or veteran's funeral or at an indoor rifle range operated under the supervision, guidance and instruction of a duly commissioned officer of one of the Armed Forces, including the National Guard and Reserve Forces, or a duly qualified adult citizen of the United States who has been granted a certificate as an instructor of small arms practice issued by one of the Armed Forces of the United States, the Adjutant General of the state, the National Rifle Association of America, or the Bureau of Municipal Police.
B. Carrying of weapons prohibited; exceptions. No person shall carry about his or her person any dirk, bowie knife, sword, spear cane, pistol, revolver, slingshot, jimmy, brass knuckles, or other dangerous, improper or unlawful weapon, except that this subsection shall not apply to police officers or other persons expressly authorized to carry any such weapons.
Doesnt say anything about lenght of a knife but Im a little confused on the wording.What is your take?
§ 234-4. Firearms and other weapons. A. Discharge of firearms, air guns or spring guns. No person shall discharge any firearm, air gun, spring gun, slingshot, crossbow or other similar instrument or weapon within the City except in self-defense or in the discharge of official duty or during a memorial service or veteran's funeral or at an indoor rifle range operated under the supervision, guidance and instruction of a duly commissioned officer of one of the Armed Forces, including the National Guard and Reserve Forces, or a duly qualified adult citizen of the United States who has been granted a certificate as an instructor of small arms practice issued by one of the Armed Forces of the United States, the Adjutant General of the state, the National Rifle Association of America, or the Bureau of Municipal Police.
B. Carrying of weapons prohibited; exceptions. No person shall carry about his or her person any dirk, bowie knife, sword, spear cane, pistol, revolver, slingshot, jimmy, brass knuckles, or other dangerous, improper or unlawful weapon, except that this subsection shall not apply to police officers or other persons expressly authorized to carry any such weapons.
Doesnt say anything about lenght of a knife but Im a little confused on the wording.What is your take?