Legal to Carry in Texas?

gordyt

gordyt

Joined
Oct 11, 2001
Messages
129
Hi Folks,

I was looking through the Texas Gun Owners Guide last night. In the back it has excerpts from Texas Penal Code. If I read it correctly, it states that a person who has a CHL (Concealed Handgun License), and who is carrying an authorized handgun can also carry a club or a knife that would otherwise be classified as an illegal knife.

This pleases me. Not that I have a nice sword to tote around or anything, but if I wanted to...

Seriously though, after receiving my Cuda Maxx I paid Mr. Levine to get his legal opinion about whether or not it would be legal to carry in Texas.

Long story short, Mr. Levine said that it's iffy at best, depending upon how a court may interpret things.

Well, if I've interpreted the law correctly (and I've included all appropriate excerpts below) then one can legally carry the Maxx, or a bowie knife, or pretty much anything else, so long as (1) that person has a valid CHL AND (2) is also carrying a handgun.

This implies, of course, that if you are in a place where you cannot carry your handgun, then you also could not carry the otherwise-illegal knife.

Anyhow, take a look below and let me know what you think.

--gordon


Here are the applicable excerpts from the Penal Code (sorry I couldn't get the formatting better!)

§ 46.02. Unlawful Carrying Weapons

(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.

§ 46.01. Definitions

In this chapter:

(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and includes but is not limited to the following:
(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
(6) "Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, and poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.

§ 46.15. Nonapplicability

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;
 
Cuda MAXX is okay because the blade is 5.5 inches. I don't know anything about carrying an illegal knife with a handgun license. Is there such a thing as a knife license? Thanks.


-DC2
 
Hi DC2,

That's what I thought too:

Originally posted by Diamond Cut II
Cuda MAXX is okay because the blade is 5.5 inches. I don't know anything about carrying an illegal knife with a handgun license. Is there such a thing as a knife license? Thanks.
-DC2
Click to expand...

However, when I asked Mr. Levine for his opinion, he thought that there could be a problem with it. Here is a brief quotation from his response to me:

----- quote -----
This knife is not so obviously a dagger as, say, a Fairbairn (or a Boker Applegate-Fairbairn). Yet considering its straight "Bowie" blade (the term used in this marketing blurb), its keen centered point, and its hand-protecting grip, I would conclude that for the purposes of Texas law, it IS a dagger.
----- end quote -----

There was a lot more in his response, but I don't think I should post it without his permission.

So it's not the blade length, but rather the classification of the knife due to its design that could give one a problem.

--gordon
 
If the blade does not exceed 5.5 inches, and only ONE edge is sharpened, the knife SHOULD be legal. A blade that close to the legal limit is sure to draw much attention from LE, however, so be ready for it. My original-style folding SERE drew much attention, although it is a whole inch under the limit. IMO, anything over 3.5 seems to draw attention, because such blades look much larger than their actual size, at least to many people. I will need to look closely at my penal code to see about the issue of illegal knives being allowed when one has a CCL.
 
Hi Rex,

Originally posted by Rex G
I will need to look closely at my penal code to see about the issue of illegal knives being allowed when one has a CCL.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I'd appreciate any feedback you may have. I'm no lawyer, for sure, and wasn't sure if I was missing something.

Note that, according to what I read, in addition to having a CHL, you must also be physically carrying a handgun. Accordingly, if you are in a place where it is not permitted to carry a handgun, then, by default, you could also not carry an "illegal" knife or club.

--g
 
Texas law groups weapons together, so it is true that where a handgun cannot be carried, other weapons also may not be carried. Only illegal knives are considered weapons in Texas, in this context. This is not to say legal objects cannot be used as weapons, but that is another subject.
 
I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me whether the Gunting can be classified as a club relative to Texas law.

I still go with under 5.5 inches...it's ok. Except for that pesky Gunting/club issue which I can't seem to resolve.
 
I am not a lawyer, but do enforce laws, in Texas, and I do not see how a Gunting could be considered a club. If you are aware of any prosecutions, please let me know. Bram Frank specifically designed the Gunting to be a common pocket knife in the eyes of the law. There are no features of the Gunting that I see that are any more club-like than any other knife with a large handle. The only feature totally unique to the Gunting is the ramp, and that feature does not, IMHO, have anything to do with a club, which is a blunt instrument.
 
Rex,

Thanks for the opinion. I tend to be a bit paranoid. I guess I did bring it up because of the ramp. It's designed, at least in part, to be a striking weapon. That seems clublike. I know, ultimately, such a thing would need to be tested in court. I just don't want to be a test case. :D
 
The ramp is more for pressure point techniques, I believe, but I will review Bram's tapes and see how he addresses that issue. Have you seen any Guntings in Houston? I had to order mine without seeing one. At first I did not like it, but it grew on me so that it's now my favorite. BTW, a smaller, kinder, gentler version called the TUSOK is in developement.
 
Nope, never held a Gunting 'til I bought mine. I actually think it makes a darned fine utility knife too. I agree that it has to grow on you. I will also say that I think Bram got it right with the direction of the compression lock (as opposed to the other Spydies with Compression locks).

Anyway, I was just thinking of some of the moves on the tapes (IIRC) where you hit the BG's weapon arm with the ramp and then go to the side of the head with the ramp. I'm not really that worried about he legality...more curious than anything.

I too am awaiting the TUSOK. I also wish Bram would see fit to come to Houston. Now that would be cool.
 
I, too, would like to see Bram in Houston. It is so hard to take off from work, but since I work night shift, I could attend a seminar in the daytime and still work at night. I like to travel, but have to plan that far in advance, and announcements for seminars always seem to be only a month or two in advance.
 
Bram if you are listening you can count me in as one who would love to attend a Gunting seminar somewhere in the Houston area!

--gordon
 
I am not sure if Bram browses the knife laws section, so I sent him an e-mail inquiring about a seminar in Houston, as well as instructors who can teach his stuff.
 
Originally posted by gordyt
Hi Folks,

I was looking through the Texas Gun Owners Guide last night. In the back it has excerpts from Texas Penal Code. If I read it correctly, it states that a person who has a CHL (Concealed Handgun License), and who is carrying an authorized handgun can also carry a club or a knife that would otherwise be classified as an illegal knife.

Well, if I've interpreted the law correctly (and I've included all appropriate excerpts below) then one can legally carry the Maxx, or a bowie knife, or pretty much anything else, so long as (1) that person has a valid CHL AND (2) is also carrying a handgun.

This implies, of course, that if you are in a place where you cannot carry your handgun, then you also could not carry the otherwise-illegal knife.

Anyhow, take a look below and let me know what you think.

--gordon


Here are the applicable excerpts from the Penal Code (sorry I couldn't get the formatting better!)

§ 46.02. Unlawful Carrying Weapons

(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.

§ 46.01. Definitions

In this chapter:

(1) "Club" means an instrument that is specially designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument, and includes but is not limited to the following:
(A) blackjack;
(B) nightstick;
(C) mace;
(D) tomahawk.
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
(6) "Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, and poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.

§ 46.15. Nonapplicability

(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;
Click to expand...

I was told in my CHL class that its referred to as a "Concealed HANDGUN License", rather than a "Concealed WEAPON License" for a reason, but your argument makes sense. I think I'm going to give my CHL instructor and my lawyer a call. I would like to point out that in Section 46.03 it lists areas where an illegal weapon cannot be carried and states "It is not a defense to prosecution that the actor possessed a handgun and was licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code." The given list, however, seems to apply to only a limited number of areas like sporting events, polling places, etc., where you are prohibited from carrying a licensed handgun anyway, so your argument that you can carry an "illegal knife" in tandem with a concealed handgun and CHL anywhere the handgun/CHL combo is legal might still be true. For my part, I wouldn't try it unless I've received confirmation from both a Texas-based lawyer and the Texas Department of Public Safety. I'd also carry photocopies of the relevant legal codes with me anytime the weapon and license are in my possession.
 
IMHO, the intent of that exception applies to handguns only, but a good defense attorney could potentially convince a jury that other prohibited weapons were also allowed under the same clause. I would not want to try it myself, unless I was willing to risk being arrested, and had an attorney who agreed to support me. (Of course that last sentence is hypothetical, since being a peace officer I can carry prohibited weapons in Texas.) On the other hand, a local D.A. who is pro-Second Amendment may not prosecute such a case at all. Having seen this section in this light, I would certainly hesitate to arrest someone with a CCL who had another type of prohibited weapon, unless he was also breaking another law at the same time. Regarding the CUDA Maxx with a Bowie blade, IMHO a true Bowie has a much longer blade, and the clip portion of the blade is sharpened, so I do consider it to be legal. I emphasize that this is my opinion, and not legal advice, and for a peace officer, I am very much a civil libertarian compared to many.
 
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